PREXUS'S PROFILE

author=Beaker

author=Versalia
Again, this is an evolution. How do you specifically define a Wargame? Or an Adventure game? All of the mechanics, features and definitions you would provide still exist in a vast number of games. They just don't exist precisely as you know them.

Panzer General is just an RTS with a war skin

This discussion has gotten terribly entrenched in semantics (what is a genre? what does it mean to be dead? etc.), but I will try to explain my previous point:

The "wargame" genre of computer games grew out of the tabletop wargaming scene in the 1980's (these were board games with a war setting, but in particular were always realism and historical based to appeal to big war buffs). This should not be confused with "games about war," since this is just a setting and not a genre. For more information about it you can read something here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargame_%28video_games%29

I'm familiar with the genre myself since my brother always liked them, with Panzer General being a big favourite (which is definitely not an RTS: those games are Real-Time Strategy games which concentrate more on action, while wargames are (usually) turn-based (like Panzer General), and are about real military strategy and history). Again, these games were made for the war buffs who could be able to tell you everything there is to know about the battles of the American civil war, WWI/WWII, etc. They were also fairly demanding of what constituted a war game: if you mentioned Call of duty being a war game to a bunch of wargamers, they would either just laugh at you, or at least start a huge flame war.

Anyway, this market, while not huge like adventure games were, was a decent chuck of the gaming market. Big magazines like PC Gamer would have columnists (in their case Bill Trotter) covering these games. In Trotter's case, over the later 90's his articles were reduced from their full page status down to half of a single column near the back the magazine, and finally in 2004, he finally called it quits.

Wargamers now, (including my brother), if they play anything that's called a wargame now, it'll probably be Steel Panthers - World at War, which was released in 1997. I guess there will be the occasional game made every now and again that could be called a wargame, but I don't think anyone in its marketing will even call it that anymore.

While what constitutes a "dead genre" can be debated since genres can expand, evolve, etc., those who call (or called) themselves "wargamers" or even those who hold that "wargames" were a definitive genre, would agree that wargames are dead. Honestly, I can't think of a better definition than that.



Sorry for being boring here, but it's a topic I'm familiar with.

I like your passion for 'War Gaming'. I think the closest recent release, would be something along the lines of Supreme Commander 1 (not 2, oh god, not 2.)

But they are really just Real Time Strategy, or Turn Based Strategy games, depending.

There are 5 Fallout games, fyi. I'm assuming you are ignoring 3, and NV. Which is worth doing.

I think someone needs to make another 2D, Top Down Fallout before we can really assess what needs changing. Unfortunately with the Bethesda/Interplay fiasco, I don't know if that will ever happen.

*EDIT: Lol I totally missed that troll on Bethesda Fallouts. WELL PLAYED SIR!*

I didn't really like Mega Man 9 and Mega Man 10, personally. I don't think an IP should fall into a niche like that. The main focus of what I am thinking about is how to revive an IP. Letting Mega Man decay in a niche like that isn't very helpful. :(

Repost from the Genre Death thread

While Genres aren't going anywhere any time soon. The topic of "Previously Successful IPs and their recent incarnations." is worth discussing.

Because, let's face it. There hasn't been a Mega Man X game with innovation since Mega Man X4.

But how would you revive that Franchise?

Adding RPG Elements didn't work. Battle Network/Legends were a completely different style of game, and could easily have dropped the Mega Man name. Zero/ZX were competent games, but nothing innovative and the RPG Elements might as well not have existed.

Mega Man ZX attempted to have the game follow a proper story, as opposed to a quick introduction, X amount of Boss Battles, then a final gauntlet towards the end boss. As far as I am concerned, this did not help the franchise but it didn't hurt it. I found it funny, though, because most IPs are working on becoming non-linear, where the 'Innovation' in Mega Man was to make it more linear.

I think A.R.E.S. Extinction Agenda is a good take on the Mega Man-style. I haven't played any more than the Demo, but the activeness of upgrading parts and weapons mid-level was a neat concept. The added suits were a hand-off to the additional suits in the later Mega Man X games, which were a good idea. The concept is the same as Zero in Mega Man X4, though. A different style of play in the same engine.

I wonder if removing the 'Stagger' from being hit, and replacing the Energy (health) Bar system with an 'Avoid Damage to Recover' system, like seen in recent First Person Shooters would be worth trying? I always found that Mega Man could play a little bit like a Bullet-Hell SHMUP, at times. Although in that scenario, the Platforming elements would need to be almost removed, as it is hard enough to platform in Mega Man games, let alone dodge hundreds of bullets at the same time.

Any other ideas? Or other IPs that you think could use revitalization, or have tried revitalization done so poorly in the past?

This is a stupid point to argue.

There are not that many genres, and the majority of them have been left unchanged for decades.

» RPG
» Shooter
» Strategy
» Platformer
» Adventure
» Action
» Simulation

All that has changed are a variety of Perspectives, Settings, and Features. In addition, there has been overlap in these Genres.

But they are the only Genres. There are 7.

Now look at the releases for the remainder of 2011. Tell me there isn't at least one game coming out in every one of these Genres.

Genres do not die, nor do they change.

I shouldn't have even posted what I did at first, which was more of an evaluation of different implementations of genres and what did and didn't fail. In retrospect, this is a much simpler way to detail the situation.

Things are different with each genre per game. Every designer has their own take, and such. But the core Genre does not change.

The features of each genre are as follows:

RPG

A game where Character Progression is a core element of game play.

Shooter

Firing Projectiles is a core element of game play.

Strategy

Using Strategy is a core element of game play.

Platformer

Traversing varied terrain is a core element of game play.

Adventure

Controlling your character to exploring locations and find/collect objects are core elements of game play.

Action

Controlling your character's movement and actions is a core element of game play.

Simulation

Controlling a simulation of a real-world or fantasy scenario is a core element of game play.

Now before you jump on me for how simplistic this is, genres are meant to be simple. I should be able to pick up a game in a store, see one of these seven Genres, and know exactly how the game is going to play and what will be expected of me, the player, to accomplish.

There are, of course, categories.

Racing Simulation, Life Simulation, Building Simulation, Farming Simulation.

Real-Time Strategy, Turn Based Strategy, Controlled Path Strategy (my new fancy name for Tower Defense).

First Person Shooter, Side Scrolling Shooter, Up Scrolling Shooter, Top Down Shooter.

etc.

This is where things like Perspective, Setting, and Features start further narrowing the Genres. But the Genres remain the same. As well as the 'Overlap' between Genres.

Third Person Western Action Adventure would be a great way to define Red Dead Redemption, for example.

Top Down Fantasy Strategy RPG Adventure would be an excellent way to describe any 'Rogue-Like'.

But the main Genres remain intact, no matter what.

author=Raekwon

author=Keromalas
raekwon has no idea what hes talking about. lol, all of these genres are evolving and doing great, especially RPG, FPS, and RTS. i cant think of one genre that is dying. and MMO isn't a genre.

Evolving? Crossing genres that used to be separate is Evolving. Yet at the same time replacing the originals. Say they cross FPS and 3PS together? Say a bunch of shooting games use both mechanics, but you want to just play a FPS only in FP? In that case, the FPS genre would have faded. This is of course, and example.

As I stated above, FPS and 3rdPS are not genres. They are perspectives. They can be applied to any Genre, such as RPG (Oblivion/Mass Effect), Shooter (Doom, Call of Duty), Action Adventure (Legend of Zelda, God of War) etc.