THE FEATURED GAME THREAD

author=Dyhalto
The slippery slope isn't a fallacy. Especially not here.
A year ago, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The notion wouldn't even be entertained. Instead, a year ago we merely allowed commercial games on RMN. Now it's advanced to this point. (my one year ago timing might be off)

A year ago, RPG Maker was less credible as a development engine. Even less so a year before then. If we all only stuck to our beliefs just because we had them in the past when making plans for the future, game development as a whole would has self-destructed a loooong time ago.

A better analogy for kory would be "what if harmonic grew into a large game company with a team of full-time employees"? At what point do we tell him he's not an indie dev anymore? Two employees? Five? Public listing on the NYSE?

A developer is no longer indie when the development of their game is financially backed by a publisher. Team size has nothing to do with it.

An even better analogy would be, "Something in life could turn up and force me to cancel a cool game I was thinking about making, so I shouldn't bother even starting to make it."

I can never get why people know and understand the boiling frog syndrome, but still disbelieve it when it's pointed out.

So commercial games are boiling water that will kill anything living in it now? Giving the community the option to vote on commercial games automatically means the death of said community?

author=NinjaSilent
This is not me trying to hate on Ara Fell - I'm happy for its developers that the commercialisation of their project went so well. But that fact alone doesn't oblige us to consider the game to be better than others, does it?

Of course not. Was there anyone here who cast their vote for Ara Fell for the sole purpose of it being commercial? To quote Liberty a couple of pages ago:

author=Liberty
Quite frankly, if a game is great it should get the spot.

That's the only reason Ara Fell has been suggested. If Ara Fell was completely and totally free, I would put money down on these exact people making the exact recommendation.

author=Ratty524

author=SnowOwl
There is a difference when you compare hobby games to commercial games. You can argue that commercial gamemakers still have the same amount of passion and drive that hobbyists have, and you might be right. But there is a difference. The difference is that commercial games can't do whatever they want anymore. They have to do something that sells.
Maybe that's a good thing, maybe it's not. But I like the hobbyist games, where you're not limited to what the majority of people like, and you can make something unique without caring about what other people think.
I like those sorts of games, and I like the sorts of people that make them. It's a personal opinion, but whatever.
I don't care for equality in this matter. I don't want commercial games on RMN.
It's too late since they are already here, but I can still voice my opinion on it, I suppose.

What does that have to do with the overall quality of the game itself? Both sides deserve to be recognized in some shape or form if they make good games (which probably won't happen soon with harmonic imo), so I find this rule on only featuring free games to be ridiculous.

Nothing. Quality had absolutely nothing to do with anything in my post.
It's not ridicilous to not want commercial games here, because allowing them will change the type of people that come here. It will bring in people that are in it for the money, not for the fun of making games. I like it when I can discuss things I do for fun with like-minded people. People that do it as work, not fun, are not like-minded.

author=NeverSilent
Red_Nova, maybe I'm more cynical than you for thinking that more and more people have started to consider Ara Fell's commercial venture - rather than the game itself - an inspiration and a symbol. But I hope that over the course of this conversation, if nothing else, I have at least managed to prove that I'm willing to let others convince me of their views if said views make sense.

No worries, NS! I totally see your position!

When I read Cash's post, I interpreted it not as an encouragement to specifically go commercial, but that beautiful looking, sounding, and (I'm assuming) playing games can be made with a smaller group or even on your own.

To move away from Ara Fell specifically, here's an example to illustrate my point: Axiom Verge.


This was done by one person. One. Single. Dedicated. Person.

Ignore the fact that it's a commercial and just look at it. If you know that this entire game's design, art, code, and music was all composed by one person and somehow DON'T get inspired, then I don't know what to tell you. If this game was available on RMN, I'd recommend it for a featured spot in the blink of an eye.

But if you somehow still get hung up on the fact that it's commercial, here is a free game: Mardek


Once again: designed, coded, composed, and arted (this is now a word because I will it so) by one single person.

Again, look at this game, realize it has been built from the ground up by a single person whose passion kept development alive (as far as I know. I haven't looked at any Mardek news since chapter 3 came out years ago), and ask yourself if this isn't an inspiration for anyone wanting to get into the scene.

If you think Mardek has inspirational value and is a game deserving of commendation and Axiom Verge does not purely because Axiom Verge has a price on it, then I can't think of anything else that will convince you. The absolute kindest thing I have to say to you is that we have a significant difference in opinion.


* I just realized that I used a lot of second person speak there. I wasn't talking to you, specifically, NS. It was more directed at anyone reading this post.

EDIT:

author=Dyhalto
So a gamedev remains forever indie as long as they don't have one of the big name publishers backing them?
Because harmonic is his own publisher. I think BadLuck is his own as well. Hell, every single one of us our own StudioXYZ logo pop up before the title screens.
Either way, it's a ridiculous definition. Big publishers aren't necessary. We're living in 2016. We can become viral phenomenons overnight, and if you play your hand right, the $$$ can come with it. So what, then, is the criteria for the line between indie and not indie?

If Dancing Dragon Games and Stegosoft were not backed financially by a publisher when making their games, then yes. That is the very definition of indie. You and/or your team are independently developing the game. Popularity, success, and income after the game is complete and available have nothing to do with the financial support the developers got during the creation process. Call it ridiculous all you want, but it's the truth.

Just so it's clear: you're still indie if a known publisher publishes your game after you have completed it. They didn't help you create it.

author=SnowOwl
It's not ridicilous to not want commercial games here, because allowing them will change the type of people that come here. It will bring in people that are in it for the money, not for the fun of making games. I like it when I can discuss things I do for fun with like-minded people. People that do it as work, not fun, are not like-minded.

Understandable in theory, but I don't see your point. There already are and have been many people here who saw RMN and free RMing merely as "training" for their ultimate goal of becoming a professional game designer. I don't like that approach either, but it's always been an existing mindset even before commercial games were allowed on RMN.
But sure, people who are in it for the money will come here. So what? The people who are here just for the fun of making games will still exist. They're not likely to suddenly disappear, not even likely to suddenly get outnumbered. You will always be able to discuss things with like-minded people, even when there are "non-like-minded" people around. Unless you think good discussions can only occur in an entirely homogenous community that excludes all "non-like-minded" people? But where's the benefit of that? As long as RMN keeps supporting free games as much as we do now, the people who are here for the fun aren't going anywhere because commercially interested devs start showing up.

author=Dyhalto
Saying don't worry, the future will take care of itself is irresponsible.

I never said that. That is the exact opposite of what I said in the passage you quoted, even. Of course the future isn't just going to take care of itself. RMN's userbase will have to stay aware of what's happening around here, and be vigilant when necessary.
Just letting everything happen and allowing change for the sake of it and regardless of the risks is irresponsible. Blocking all change just because there might be risks attached is also irresponsible. I think the very fact that we're having this debate, and that the community seems kind of divided on the subject, is a pretty good sign that if worst should come to worst and RMN gets in danger of being overrun by commercial games that threaten to blot out the hobbyist scene, there will be people present who recognise and openly take a stand against it.

In short, let's stay vigilant and voice our opinions, but let's not be fundamentalist about it either. If you are against Ara Fell - or any other commercial game - getting featured, do say so. I'm right there with you.


Edit:
You people are posting way too fast. I can't keep up with all the sniping.

author=SnowOwl
It's not so much as creating a "homogenous community" as it's about what sort of community you would like to strive towards. It will never be a reality, ofcourse, but that doesn't mean you can't try. It's impossible to say that the site will always be the same. It 100% won't, because nothing stays the same, especially on something as fast-moving as the internet. But for as long as possible, I'd like RMN to be about making games for fun. I think commercial games is a step away from that.

All right, now we're on the same page.

Still, there are very few notable people around here who are only commercial devs. Just as evidenced by slash right here, many of them have made and will probably continue to make (awesome) free games just for fun, while also working on commercial projects. And while I personally may not be super happy about the second part, I'd rather give them room to post and promote both their free and their commercial works than have them publish neither here, because they were driven away by a site policy that's too restrictive.

author=Dyhalto
slash's opinion isn't evidence. It's conjecture. He's not a commercial dev in any form

Incorrect.


And I think that ironically enough, harmonic is a good example of how not to garner attention or even get your game featured on RMN. Look at how few people have downloaded or shown interest in his newer games compared to his older ones. And nobody seems to seriously have considered asking for any of his games to be featured in a long time. Very few people here care about him or his newer stuff now, and for good reason, I'd say.

By the way, I kind of agree with your views on the damaging potential of money in an environment like this. But I think keeping people around who are interested in both free and commercial gamemaking is worth the tradeoff. (And as an aside, trying to prove anything by making dogmatic statements on unrelated fields such as politics is definitely not going to convince anyone, either.)

Skyrim sucks though and it shouldn't be featured! Now, say, The Gate of Firmament on the other hand...

(+1 for allowing commercial games to become the featured game, if we're hosting their gameprofiles, are completed, have something playable, and meet the quality requirements I don't see why not. The biggest qualm I had was that commercial games would have more money and time to invest in a game and should be better products but that hasn't been the case. We can change pacing and other qualifiers over time, it isn't like anything is immutable)


*

I may in fact actually be illiterate! Fortunately Oblivion and Skyrim both sucked so I'm going to interpolate wildly and guess that TES6 will also be crappy and not meet the quality requirements for RMN's frontpage

I can't promise that it's a good game, just different. It looked interesting and I've only played one other game by a Chinese developer. I'm not far enough to give any insightful commentary on it except I'm enjoying it so far, which sadly doesn't mean much!

author=SnowOwl
@slash
I'm sure that's true for you, but I don't think that's true for everyone. It probably isn't a very good way to make money, like you say, but that doesn't stop people from trying. "I'm special, my game will be the next big thing, I'll show those noobs how it's done."
I don't think that's a overly negative way to look at it, I just think it's realistically how alot of people that get into commercial gamemaking think.
It's not that there's anything wrong with commercial games per se, I play mostly commercial games myself, it's just that I don't think they are a good fit for RMN.

Edit: It's not so much as creating a "homogenous community" as it's about what sort of community you would like to strive towards. It will never be a reality, ofcourse, but that doesn't mean you can't try. It's impossible to say that the site will always be the same. It 100% won't, because nothing stays the same, especially on something as fast-moving as the internet. But for as long as possible, I'd like RMN to be about making games for fun. I think commercial games is a step away from that.

Your last couple of posts couldn't be more detached. Everyone works to develop indie games because they have passion for it, and if they have an opportunity to make something out of the ordeal, why would they not take it?

Your main concern seems to be that it'll somehow invite a disease in the community that'll lead us towards an imagined "dark age." Guess what: there are commercial developers are in the learning stages just the same as amateur hobbyists. We're really only different in that one guy decides to make a profit off their work while another doesn't.

The only thing I can see coming from this is a potential for raised standards within the community at large, which is a good thing in my eyes.