GAME LENGTH: THE DECIDING FACTOR
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So I'm sure MANY of you have heard topics of this before, and I'm sure I've posted this same topic myself once upon a time here, and I'm also sure MANY of you have had this issue as well.
So the question of the day is: How to determine just how long a game is going to be? Currently, I am aiming for roughly 40-60 game overs for the main storyline (additional game time for sidequest stuff depends on if I feel like ever doing them), which at the 50-60% mark of my game as it is, it runs about 20-40 hours (varying on the player of course). The problem that I'm currently running into, however, is the later half of the game's content. There's a lot of dungeons still left in the game with storyline attached to them, and I hate to cut out storyline related anything, but I feel that I may need to to keep it down to a reasonable length. I know that many game companies do this often, and I can understand why, but just what exactly is best to cut out? Would it be wise to somehow relegate cut content to another part of the game? How do you determine how many dungeons your game has? How do you determine just how LONG each dungeon is?
For the record, this is what most of my dungeons tend to be (spoilers because it's going to go into detail on each one):
Beta1:
Total amount of dungeons: 5
Dungeon #1: Misty Lake (estimated time: 10-15 minutes)
Dungeon #2: Forest of Magic (estimated time: 10-15 minutes on both paths)
Dungeon #3: Scarlet Devil Mansion (estimated time: 20-25 minutes)
Dungeon #4: Bamboo Forest of the Lost (estimated time: 20 minutes)
Dungeon #5: Eientei (estimated time: 30-45 minutes, since this one is kinda a puzzle dungeon)
Beta2:
Total amount of dungeons: 5
Dungeon #1: Underschool (estimated time: 20-25 minutes)
Dungeon #2: Youkai Mountain (estimated time: 30 minutes-1 hour)
Dungeon #3: Winter Forest (estimated time: 20 minutes)
Dungeon #4: Hakugyokurou (estimated time: 20 minutes)
Dungeon #5: Eientei (estimate time: 30 minutes)
Beta3:
Total dungeons: 4
Dungeon #1: Road of Reconsideration (estimated time: 30 minutes)
Dungeon #2: Remains of Hell (estimated time: 30 minutes-1 hour)
Dungeon #3: Mayohiga (estimated time: 10 minutes)
Dungeon #4: Poltergeist Mansion (estimated time: 30-45 minutes)
Beta4:
Total dungeons: 12
Dungeon #1: Kourindou (estimated time: 10 minutes)
Dungeon #2: Misty Lake (estimated time: 15-20 minutes)
Dungeon #3: Scarlet Devil Mansion (estimated time: 20-25 minutes)
Dungeon #4: Remains of Hell (estimated time: 30-45 minutes)
Dungeon #5: Hakurei Shrine Ruins (estimated time: 10 minutes)
Dungeon #6: Youkai Mountain (estimated time: 30-45 minutes)
Dungeon #7: Dream Land (estimated time: 30-45 minutes)
Dungeon #8: Scarlet Devil Mansion - Dimensional Rift (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #9: Icicle Caverns (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #10: Insect Forest (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #11: Eastern Forest (estimated time: 20 minutes)
Dungeon #12: Cave to Makai (estimated time 1-2 hours)
Beta5:
Total dungeons: 17
Dungeon #1: Cave to Pandaemonium (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #2: Pandemonium (estimated time: 30 minutes)
Dungeon #3: Hollowed Caverns (estimated time: 1-2 hours)
Dungeon #4: Hollowed Caverns - Dimensional Rift (estimated time: 25-30 minutes)
Dungeon #5: Battlefield (estimated time: 20-25 minutes)
Dungeon #6: Makai Caves (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #7: Valley of Corpses (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #8: Valley of Corpses - Dimensional Rift (estimated time: 10-20 minutes)
Dungeon #9: Frozen Fields (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #10: Frozen Fields - Dimensional Rift (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #11: Fallen Shrine (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #12: Fallen Shrine - Dimensional Rift (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #13: Reimaden (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #14: True Pandemonium (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #15: Silent Shrine (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #16: Palanquin Ship (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #17: Hokkai (estimated time: ????)
Beta6:
Total dungeons: 17
Dungeon #1: Hakurei Shrine Forest (estimated time: ????)
(From here, dungeons could be gone to in any order)
Dungeon #2: Misty Lake - River Banks (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #3: Scarlet Devil Mansion - Clock Tower (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #4: Youkai Mountain - Tenma's Tower (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #5: Youkai Mountain - Genbu Marsh (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #6: Hakuygokurou - Netherworld (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #7: Bamboo Forest of the Lost - Hanged Man's Route (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #8: Forest of Magic - Stormy Path (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #9: Road of Reconsideration - Sanzu River (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #10: Sunflower Fields (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #11: Probability Hyperspace Vessel (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #12: Remains of Hell - Chireiden Basement (estimated time: ????)
(Dungeons return to gone in order from here)
Dungeon #13: Pandaemonium-R (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #14: Lunarian Capital (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #15: Dimensional Distortion (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #16: Sea of Clouds (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #17: Bhava-Agra (estimated time: ????)
Beta7:
Total dungeons: 4
Dungeon #1: End of Gensokyo (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #2: Gaplands (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #3: The Void (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #4: Heart of Pandora (estimated time: ????)
Estimated time sometimes includes the boss fights, but sometimes it's grossly under/overestimated. So yeah, you can see the kind of pickle that I'm in right now, yes? ^^; I have already cut out 2 dungeons in beta5 (Ruins of Vina and its Dimensional Rift) due to how big they'd be (another 2 hour dungeon is not what this game needs). It'll be relegated to sidequest content only I feel. I ALMOST feel like cutting out the dungeons you can go in any order in beta6 (those are all dungeons where you have to go to to get party members back. Think of FFVI's World of Ruin, except at the end you have to fight each party member).
So the question of the day is: How to determine just how long a game is going to be? Currently, I am aiming for roughly 40-60 game overs for the main storyline (additional game time for sidequest stuff depends on if I feel like ever doing them), which at the 50-60% mark of my game as it is, it runs about 20-40 hours (varying on the player of course). The problem that I'm currently running into, however, is the later half of the game's content. There's a lot of dungeons still left in the game with storyline attached to them, and I hate to cut out storyline related anything, but I feel that I may need to to keep it down to a reasonable length. I know that many game companies do this often, and I can understand why, but just what exactly is best to cut out? Would it be wise to somehow relegate cut content to another part of the game? How do you determine how many dungeons your game has? How do you determine just how LONG each dungeon is?
For the record, this is what most of my dungeons tend to be (spoilers because it's going to go into detail on each one):
Beta1:
Total amount of dungeons: 5
Dungeon #1: Misty Lake (estimated time: 10-15 minutes)
Dungeon #2: Forest of Magic (estimated time: 10-15 minutes on both paths)
Dungeon #3: Scarlet Devil Mansion (estimated time: 20-25 minutes)
Dungeon #4: Bamboo Forest of the Lost (estimated time: 20 minutes)
Dungeon #5: Eientei (estimated time: 30-45 minutes, since this one is kinda a puzzle dungeon)
Beta2:
Total amount of dungeons: 5
Dungeon #1: Underschool (estimated time: 20-25 minutes)
Dungeon #2: Youkai Mountain (estimated time: 30 minutes-1 hour)
Dungeon #3: Winter Forest (estimated time: 20 minutes)
Dungeon #4: Hakugyokurou (estimated time: 20 minutes)
Dungeon #5: Eientei (estimate time: 30 minutes)
Beta3:
Total dungeons: 4
Dungeon #1: Road of Reconsideration (estimated time: 30 minutes)
Dungeon #2: Remains of Hell (estimated time: 30 minutes-1 hour)
Dungeon #3: Mayohiga (estimated time: 10 minutes)
Dungeon #4: Poltergeist Mansion (estimated time: 30-45 minutes)
Beta4:
Total dungeons: 12
Dungeon #1: Kourindou (estimated time: 10 minutes)
Dungeon #2: Misty Lake (estimated time: 15-20 minutes)
Dungeon #3: Scarlet Devil Mansion (estimated time: 20-25 minutes)
Dungeon #4: Remains of Hell (estimated time: 30-45 minutes)
Dungeon #5: Hakurei Shrine Ruins (estimated time: 10 minutes)
Dungeon #6: Youkai Mountain (estimated time: 30-45 minutes)
Dungeon #7: Dream Land (estimated time: 30-45 minutes)
Dungeon #8: Scarlet Devil Mansion - Dimensional Rift (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #9: Icicle Caverns (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #10: Insect Forest (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #11: Eastern Forest (estimated time: 20 minutes)
Dungeon #12: Cave to Makai (estimated time 1-2 hours)
Beta5:
Total dungeons: 17
Dungeon #1: Cave to Pandaemonium (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #2: Pandemonium (estimated time: 30 minutes)
Dungeon #3: Hollowed Caverns (estimated time: 1-2 hours)
Dungeon #4: Hollowed Caverns - Dimensional Rift (estimated time: 25-30 minutes)
Dungeon #5: Battlefield (estimated time: 20-25 minutes)
Dungeon #6: Makai Caves (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #7: Valley of Corpses (estimated time: 20-30 minutes)
Dungeon #8: Valley of Corpses - Dimensional Rift (estimated time: 10-20 minutes)
Dungeon #9: Frozen Fields (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #10: Frozen Fields - Dimensional Rift (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #11: Fallen Shrine (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #12: Fallen Shrine - Dimensional Rift (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #13: Reimaden (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #14: True Pandemonium (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #15: Silent Shrine (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #16: Palanquin Ship (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #17: Hokkai (estimated time: ????)
Beta6:
Total dungeons: 17
Dungeon #1: Hakurei Shrine Forest (estimated time: ????)
(From here, dungeons could be gone to in any order)
Dungeon #2: Misty Lake - River Banks (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #3: Scarlet Devil Mansion - Clock Tower (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #4: Youkai Mountain - Tenma's Tower (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #5: Youkai Mountain - Genbu Marsh (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #6: Hakuygokurou - Netherworld (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #7: Bamboo Forest of the Lost - Hanged Man's Route (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #8: Forest of Magic - Stormy Path (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #9: Road of Reconsideration - Sanzu River (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #10: Sunflower Fields (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #11: Probability Hyperspace Vessel (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #12: Remains of Hell - Chireiden Basement (estimated time: ????)
(Dungeons return to gone in order from here)
Dungeon #13: Pandaemonium-R (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #14: Lunarian Capital (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #15: Dimensional Distortion (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #16: Sea of Clouds (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #17: Bhava-Agra (estimated time: ????)
Beta7:
Total dungeons: 4
Dungeon #1: End of Gensokyo (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #2: Gaplands (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #3: The Void (estimated time: ????)
Dungeon #4: Heart of Pandora (estimated time: ????)
Estimated time sometimes includes the boss fights, but sometimes it's grossly under/overestimated. So yeah, you can see the kind of pickle that I'm in right now, yes? ^^; I have already cut out 2 dungeons in beta5 (Ruins of Vina and its Dimensional Rift) due to how big they'd be (another 2 hour dungeon is not what this game needs). It'll be relegated to sidequest content only I feel. I ALMOST feel like cutting out the dungeons you can go in any order in beta6 (those are all dungeons where you have to go to to get party members back. Think of FFVI's World of Ruin, except at the end you have to fight each party member).
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Why do you call your chapters (I assume they're chapters) "betas"?
I don't know. That's just all of the parts that were included in those particular beta releases, so I ended up just calling them "betas" instead of "chapters". There's really no chapters here. Some arcs here and there, but nothing worth calling chapters I feel. ^^;
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
There's a part of me that thinks if you think there's any remote chance you can cut something out and still have a game afterwards, you should cut it. Then you end up with only the best parts of your game design.
But there's another part of me that thinks that if people are enjoying your game, they'll want to keep playing it, so you should keep it going for as long as you think you can keep it fun.
I guess you can actually do both by cutting out everything you can and then starting on another similar game afterwards. As an extra bonus, you get more respect as a developer, and your later games are better because of the things you learned from player feedback and reception. Though this assumes you care about your reputation, and requires that you actually seek out feedback and pay enough attention to learn from it.
But there's another part of me that thinks that if people are enjoying your game, they'll want to keep playing it, so you should keep it going for as long as you think you can keep it fun.
I guess you can actually do both by cutting out everything you can and then starting on another similar game afterwards. As an extra bonus, you get more respect as a developer, and your later games are better because of the things you learned from player feedback and reception. Though this assumes you care about your reputation, and requires that you actually seek out feedback and pay enough attention to learn from it.
Well, why would you cut out content if it is good? Game companies do that mainly for commercial reasons like budget constraints and such, but you don't have such constraints! You have the freedom to create whatever you want. Just keep what you feel will keep players interested and cut out the ones that don't.
Though I see betas 4 to 6 have a lot of dungeons compared to the rest. So I assume there's more storyline content in betas 1, 2, 3 and 7 compared to the rest?
Personally, I think you should cut down on the number of dungeons in betas 4-6 assuming the amount of storyline content is the same for every beta.
Though I see betas 4 to 6 have a lot of dungeons compared to the rest. So I assume there's more storyline content in betas 1, 2, 3 and 7 compared to the rest?
Personally, I think you should cut down on the number of dungeons in betas 4-6 assuming the amount of storyline content is the same for every beta.
I'm usually in favour of shorter games, but I think it would be wrong to cut out content you had planned all along just for the sake to not exceed a specific play time.
It's just as bad as trying to stretch a game's length.
Just stick to the originally plan so that everything fits together perfectly, unless that original design already contains plenty of "filler" dungeon you only put in because you thought the game would be too small otherwise.
The bigger concern would be to how make the game stay interesting for the player. Because many RPG maker games already bored me after a few hours, because they always stay the same, just more dungeons and towns. If interesting aspects are continuously added that keep the gameplay fresh, then a game can also fascinate tenth of hours easily.
It's just as bad as trying to stretch a game's length.
Just stick to the originally plan so that everything fits together perfectly, unless that original design already contains plenty of "filler" dungeon you only put in because you thought the game would be too small otherwise.
The bigger concern would be to how make the game stay interesting for the player. Because many RPG maker games already bored me after a few hours, because they always stay the same, just more dungeons and towns. If interesting aspects are continuously added that keep the gameplay fresh, then a game can also fascinate tenth of hours easily.
I realized I also should reply from a game developer viewpoint:
I don't care. At all. When I make a game it's born from an idea. And that idea is complete in my head (and sometimes pieces of paper) before I even start coding at all. For me the goal is always to get that idea realized, no matter how long or short the result will be. My game ideas are always based around stuff I'd enjoy playing, so length it kind a of non-issue here. Way before I'd even be able to produce a game that is boring for me, I'd have quit development anyway.
Nothing that's relavant for the story, that's for sure.
Even in games where those "game companies" did it, I can usually feel "hmm there seems to be something missing here" or "this part kinda seems added in later" and that's not a very positive feeling in either case.
Only if you think the reworked structure is better game design.
Well I just don't care, or I could say that, but in truth, the number of dungeons is already covered in my very first idea of the game anyway. Like I've 100% sure that one of my game ideas is a story that goes through 5 dungeons, I have complete idea of what these dungeon are and a generally idea how they are structured. That's all before starting to develop. During development, the only thing I add is flavour. I might also add bonus dungeons that come after the game as final challenge for people who finished the game and enjoyed it, but I'd never put anything in between or cut something out.
I don't do that either, but I tend to design quite large dungeons, because I'm a fan of complex dungeon design. The largest one I designed was in itself already 15 hours long, but the players wouldn't be in it all the time because plottwists and you could unlock shortcuts and stuff later on too.
How to determine just how long a game is going to be?
I don't care. At all. When I make a game it's born from an idea. And that idea is complete in my head (and sometimes pieces of paper) before I even start coding at all. For me the goal is always to get that idea realized, no matter how long or short the result will be. My game ideas are always based around stuff I'd enjoy playing, so length it kind a of non-issue here. Way before I'd even be able to produce a game that is boring for me, I'd have quit development anyway.
I know that many game companies do this often, and I can understand why, but just what exactly is best to cut out?
Nothing that's relavant for the story, that's for sure.
Even in games where those "game companies" did it, I can usually feel "hmm there seems to be something missing here" or "this part kinda seems added in later" and that's not a very positive feeling in either case.
Would it be wise to somehow relegate cut content to another part of the game?
Only if you think the reworked structure is better game design.
How do you determine how many dungeons your game has?
Well I just don't care, or I could say that, but in truth, the number of dungeons is already covered in my very first idea of the game anyway. Like I've 100% sure that one of my game ideas is a story that goes through 5 dungeons, I have complete idea of what these dungeon are and a generally idea how they are structured. That's all before starting to develop. During development, the only thing I add is flavour. I might also add bonus dungeons that come after the game as final challenge for people who finished the game and enjoyed it, but I'd never put anything in between or cut something out.
How do you determine just how LONG each dungeon is?
I don't do that either, but I tend to design quite large dungeons, because I'm a fan of complex dungeon design. The largest one I designed was in itself already 15 hours long, but the players wouldn't be in it all the time because plottwists and you could unlock shortcuts and stuff later on too.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
You should go into a project with an idea of how long you want it to be because otherwise you're likely to create a sprawling mess.
As far as content, if it's not contributing to progression of challenge (in gameplay terms) or progression of narrative/character revelation (in story terms), it's pointless and needs to go. (Preferably, your content should involve both progressions at once, but that can be difficult to manage.) Basically, if the action isn't rising, you probably need to axe that bit.
What sticks out to me is that you have this list of dungeons, but nothing about why they exist in the game. Things should be there for a reason (beyond "because I need them for the game to be a game").
To answer the question "How to determine just how long a game is going to be?":
Generally I figure out beforehand how much content I think an idea/story can carry. If it's a really simple idea, it's going to be a very short game, because I don't want things to overstay their welcome. In terms of narrative, I like to treat it as (at least) one story beat per dungeon: Each dungeon needs to progress the plot and/or the character's growth. The gameplay itself should be long enough between beats for the player to digest whatever info they received without forgetting it; this isn't something that's hard and fast, so playtesting is very important to determine what's too long or too short.
So basically, outline your narrative (whether story or just "what challenges the player needs to deal with) and base your length and dungeon number on that.
Some concrete examples:
Virtual Grappi:
This has almost no length at all, because the basic idea is extremely simple: combine familiar virtual pet gameplay with unfamiliar attitudes to cause a sense of unease.
The gameplay "narrative" beats are:
-What is this? What can I do?
-Oh God, sometimes I do things that hurt it and I don't know why
-Oh no, it died! Try again!
-Wait, what?!
All told, they're spread out in three "dungeons"- the first playthrough comprising the first two beats, the second playthrough and the final "secret" area comprising the last two. Overall, it's a game that lasts maybe fifteen minutes at most. Any more than that would dilute the main idea.
Godiva Project:
By contrast, I have a WIP that's based on a somewhat complicated mystery story involving several time periods, combined with a modern-day romance.
I started with making an outline of both the mystery plot and the romance plot, as well as some side information to get the player in the right frame of mind to piece clues together properly, then grouped the info together and figured out what kind of locations I could use to get the info to the player.
Since I had so much to deal with, I consolidated things as much as I could, making each location useful for multiple narrative purposes: both the clues for the mystery and the development of the romance. Actually, one is only strictly used for the romance at this point in development, but has connections to the mystery.
All told, it's about 11 "dungeons" total, each one offering several different story details and events. It's a pretty hefty game, since it has to carry multiple plots, and the areas are designed to be visited repeatedly as new developments inspire the player to investigate more.
Edit: Dang, lists and hide do NOT play well together!
As far as content, if it's not contributing to progression of challenge (in gameplay terms) or progression of narrative/character revelation (in story terms), it's pointless and needs to go. (Preferably, your content should involve both progressions at once, but that can be difficult to manage.) Basically, if the action isn't rising, you probably need to axe that bit.
What sticks out to me is that you have this list of dungeons, but nothing about why they exist in the game. Things should be there for a reason (beyond "because I need them for the game to be a game").
To answer the question "How to determine just how long a game is going to be?":
Generally I figure out beforehand how much content I think an idea/story can carry. If it's a really simple idea, it's going to be a very short game, because I don't want things to overstay their welcome. In terms of narrative, I like to treat it as (at least) one story beat per dungeon: Each dungeon needs to progress the plot and/or the character's growth. The gameplay itself should be long enough between beats for the player to digest whatever info they received without forgetting it; this isn't something that's hard and fast, so playtesting is very important to determine what's too long or too short.
So basically, outline your narrative (whether story or just "what challenges the player needs to deal with) and base your length and dungeon number on that.
Some concrete examples:
Virtual Grappi:
This has almost no length at all, because the basic idea is extremely simple: combine familiar virtual pet gameplay with unfamiliar attitudes to cause a sense of unease.
The gameplay "narrative" beats are:
-What is this? What can I do?
-Oh God, sometimes I do things that hurt it and I don't know why
-Oh no, it died! Try again!
-Wait, what?!
All told, they're spread out in three "dungeons"- the first playthrough comprising the first two beats, the second playthrough and the final "secret" area comprising the last two. Overall, it's a game that lasts maybe fifteen minutes at most. Any more than that would dilute the main idea.
Godiva Project:
By contrast, I have a WIP that's based on a somewhat complicated mystery story involving several time periods, combined with a modern-day romance.
I started with making an outline of both the mystery plot and the romance plot, as well as some side information to get the player in the right frame of mind to piece clues together properly, then grouped the info together and figured out what kind of locations I could use to get the info to the player.
Since I had so much to deal with, I consolidated things as much as I could, making each location useful for multiple narrative purposes: both the clues for the mystery and the development of the romance. Actually, one is only strictly used for the romance at this point in development, but has connections to the mystery.
All told, it's about 11 "dungeons" total, each one offering several different story details and events. It's a pretty hefty game, since it has to carry multiple plots, and the areas are designed to be visited repeatedly as new developments inspire the player to investigate more.
Edit: Dang, lists and hide do NOT play well together!
I think no matter how good your game is anything can get tiring after awhile. The only reason gameplay is usually good is because it does something a little fresh in either ideas or execution. Padding it out just makes the nuances more obvious and played out. Sometimes it's just better to introduce something really good, then throw it away before any interest dies down.
What I think is more interesting is what if you have a shitty section that you can't take out, but can reorder. This doesn't always work for RPGs but idk, like editing a movie you can make scenarios compliment each other depending on where they line up on the story. Some of the best games either intentionally or incidentally have a lot of neatly placed peaks. You may have a shitty sewer level, but if it's surrounded by better moments it might turn into a good boring filler period.
What I think is more interesting is what if you have a shitty section that you can't take out, but can reorder. This doesn't always work for RPGs but idk, like editing a movie you can make scenarios compliment each other depending on where they line up on the story. Some of the best games either intentionally or incidentally have a lot of neatly placed peaks. You may have a shitty sewer level, but if it's surrounded by better moments it might turn into a good boring filler period.
@eplipswich: Actually, the hilarious thing is beta5 WAS supposed to have the most story content out of the entire game. There's actually MORE content that was cut early on (which was a bunch of "downtime" events between dungeons) which would have had more interactions and whatnot between characters. I deemed it as being too much though and cut most of it out. There's a lot I feel I could've done with the story overall (especially in earlier parts), but that's for much, much later if I ever decide it needs fixed (if at all). Can't keep going back fixing things forever, ya? ^^;
But yeah, I already cut out the 11 dungeons in beta6 where you'd have to go back to old dungeons (that has new areas to explore) and find your old party members and defeat them to get them back. I'm just going to go the route of "What happened? Did we end up knocked out after that last bout?" in response to the event directly before the Hakurei Shrine Forest event. Originally, each beta WAS going to have around 5 dungeons or so only...but that didn't work well with the story I had going. ^^;
@ RyaReisender: I try to make it a point to myself as a developer to make each dungeon and boss fight as unique as I can. Granted, this doesn't always pan out (I'm terrible with puzzle dungeons for instance) and a lot of early game areas are pretty sameish in that you just traverse them, but I try at least the further into the game the player gets! ^^;
But yeah, I normally wouldn't have cut anything out, but then the game just would never end if I did that. I've been told by a lot of people before I should've just made like...a Visual Novel or fanfiction instead of a game because of how much there was in it originally. ^^;
@Sooz: Yeah, if I included all of that, it'd be pretty lengthy. There's actually a lot that goes on in quite a few of those dungeons, although that's not always the case (for instance, most of the dungeons in beta5 involve having to go find a Magic Stone (there's 5 of them), and throughout the dungeon there's generally some sort of event (for instance, at Valley of Corpses, there's a couple events involving the Malboros that lurk around there, and then at the end before getting the crystal is an event that involves Tiamat). Sometimes there may be no event at all, or very minor (for instance, Winter Forest's only event really is the boss fight, which isn't even that hard. It's basically a dungeon that's there to add content to the game. It COULD be cut out and nothing would be really lost but...eh).
Basically, what I'm saying is when I had those dungeons placed in the game, I had already thought of the story behind each of them and why the party goes there and whatnot. I already had the ideas for most things set up before I began, though while working on the game obviously some things were changed (for instance, the main character Hope in my game didn't even exist at first. In fact, none of the fragments of Pandora existed. Only Pandora herself did, and originally Sariel was never a major villain in the story either and was never seen at all in the game).
In fact, sometimes I have rough drafts of what I want to do, but not the actual dialogue or scenes. In these cases, I actually run a movie reel in my head and go from there (that's actually how I handled the entire scenario for the second runthrough of Remains of Hell, as well as the events of Eientei). I run better that way than trying to force myself to do it otherwise, although admittedly sometimes I fall asleep when I do that lol...
But yeah, I already cut out the 11 dungeons in beta6 where you'd have to go back to old dungeons (that has new areas to explore) and find your old party members and defeat them to get them back. I'm just going to go the route of "What happened? Did we end up knocked out after that last bout?" in response to the event directly before the Hakurei Shrine Forest event. Originally, each beta WAS going to have around 5 dungeons or so only...but that didn't work well with the story I had going. ^^;
@ RyaReisender: I try to make it a point to myself as a developer to make each dungeon and boss fight as unique as I can. Granted, this doesn't always pan out (I'm terrible with puzzle dungeons for instance) and a lot of early game areas are pretty sameish in that you just traverse them, but I try at least the further into the game the player gets! ^^;
But yeah, I normally wouldn't have cut anything out, but then the game just would never end if I did that. I've been told by a lot of people before I should've just made like...a Visual Novel or fanfiction instead of a game because of how much there was in it originally. ^^;
@Sooz: Yeah, if I included all of that, it'd be pretty lengthy. There's actually a lot that goes on in quite a few of those dungeons, although that's not always the case (for instance, most of the dungeons in beta5 involve having to go find a Magic Stone (there's 5 of them), and throughout the dungeon there's generally some sort of event (for instance, at Valley of Corpses, there's a couple events involving the Malboros that lurk around there, and then at the end before getting the crystal is an event that involves Tiamat). Sometimes there may be no event at all, or very minor (for instance, Winter Forest's only event really is the boss fight, which isn't even that hard. It's basically a dungeon that's there to add content to the game. It COULD be cut out and nothing would be really lost but...eh).
Basically, what I'm saying is when I had those dungeons placed in the game, I had already thought of the story behind each of them and why the party goes there and whatnot. I already had the ideas for most things set up before I began, though while working on the game obviously some things were changed (for instance, the main character Hope in my game didn't even exist at first. In fact, none of the fragments of Pandora existed. Only Pandora herself did, and originally Sariel was never a major villain in the story either and was never seen at all in the game).
In fact, sometimes I have rough drafts of what I want to do, but not the actual dialogue or scenes. In these cases, I actually run a movie reel in my head and go from there (that's actually how I handled the entire scenario for the second runthrough of Remains of Hell, as well as the events of Eientei). I run better that way than trying to force myself to do it otherwise, although admittedly sometimes I fall asleep when I do that lol...
I'm speaking more from a player point of view. But what's always kept me playing a game was variety. Some parts may be boring or frustrating, most games sneak in some filler to make the game appear longer.
But they are sandwiched between really cool interesting parts. So maybe it makes the interesting parts, even more interesting? Assuming the player managed to get past the boring part.
The idea is maybe good games need some bad parts so we can appreciate all the good parts all the more nya~
But they are sandwiched between really cool interesting parts. So maybe it makes the interesting parts, even more interesting? Assuming the player managed to get past the boring part.
The idea is maybe good games need some bad parts so we can appreciate all the good parts all the more nya~
I suppose so, but I only worry about it due to how long it'll take otherwise to get it actually done. If it weren't for that alone, then I myself wouldn't even think about it. But since it's already been close to 9 years (next year will be 9), and I really just want to be done with this game, I've been thinking of ways to speed it up and whatnot so...^^;;
I guess that's a whole new issue altogether, though. That's more the "When I was young I wanted to do this super epic RPG and then realize it's too much work" issue. Nothing you can do about it now without making it feel like content was cut out, though. But for the next project remember: Always plan small.
I suppose so. If there IS a next project, anyways, heh. After this one, doubt I'll be making another one (if I did, I'd want to be 100% original and not be a fangame at all. Though I'd also want it to be more "fun" and whatnot, much like the Neptunia series is (yes, that series has been inspiring me a lot lately. I realized after watching a LP of the latest game that a lot of the games that I've played or reference and whatnot are just...too serious and whatnot, and not enough fun). Of course, doing this without ripping off anything or whatnot is another thing entirely ehehe...). ^^;
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