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CloseRecently I have seen a lot of discussion about limit breaks, and after talking with Karsu about them today (or was it yesterday?) I've decided that I would like to know how you guys/females (wut) feel about them.
Limit breaks/overdrives/power gauges/force points/superior actions/orgasms, guys, not females. How you feel about SUPER CONDITIONAL ATTACKS not breasts (MOG, I'm looking at you).
Personally, I like them as long as they are triggered often (FF7, not FF10). In the case of them not have a bar filling up but being usable based on player decisions (FFX-2's character-unique dress spheres required you to access every dress on a grid in one battle; FF12 required you to be like HEY I HATE MY MP LET'S WASTE IT), it should be not-easy but not-hard/strange. Being low on health is fine (FF6, Three the Hard Way). Randomly giving up turns for little benefit is not (Xenosaga 2, arguably).
Also I really really really enjoyed overdrive in Tales of the Abyss. It was slow at first (you don't even unlock it until L15 or something) but MAN it's fun to see Anise go nuts (YOU BASTARD!).
How do you feel about SUPER CONDITIONAL ATTACKS go go go
Limit breaks/overdrives/power gauges/force points/superior actions/orgasms, guys, not females. How you feel about SUPER CONDITIONAL ATTACKS not breasts (MOG, I'm looking at you).
Personally, I like them as long as they are triggered often (FF7, not FF10). In the case of them not have a bar filling up but being usable based on player decisions (FFX-2's character-unique dress spheres required you to access every dress on a grid in one battle; FF12 required you to be like HEY I HATE MY MP LET'S WASTE IT), it should be not-easy but not-hard/strange. Being low on health is fine (FF6, Three the Hard Way). Randomly giving up turns for little benefit is not (Xenosaga 2, arguably).
Also I really really really enjoyed overdrive in Tales of the Abyss. It was slow at first (you don't even unlock it until L15 or something) but MAN it's fun to see Anise go nuts (YOU BASTARD!).
How do you feel about SUPER CONDITIONAL ATTACKS go go go
Shadowtext
120
I think they're a good idea on the whole, because they give the player an option to be used only in dire circumstances....which is why I don't have a problem with there being difficult conditions to pull them off most of the time. If you could do them all the time, they would become something of a game breaker. You should only pull them off once in a blue moon--like the D-abilities in Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter, for example (that particular model is one I wouldn't recommend emulating, though. Avoid situations where the user can screw himself out of being able to finish the game, in general).
I don't like when they're tied to the MP gauge, since it changes them from an extra resource to manage into the same resource that you're already drawing your magic from, so the effect has to be fairly significant to make it more effective than just casting those spells would've been in the first place. But I didn't have a problem with FF12's handling because MP was way more useful for Quickenings than it was for attack magic, and it refilled fast enough to handle support and healing even after a Quickening. (I played FF12 IZJS when I finally bought the game myself, though, and Mist Charges didn't use the same pool as MP there anyway, so it didn't cause me as much trouble).
I don't like when they're tied to the MP gauge, since it changes them from an extra resource to manage into the same resource that you're already drawing your magic from, so the effect has to be fairly significant to make it more effective than just casting those spells would've been in the first place. But I didn't have a problem with FF12's handling because MP was way more useful for Quickenings than it was for attack magic, and it refilled fast enough to handle support and healing even after a Quickening. (I played FF12 IZJS when I finally bought the game myself, though, and Mist Charges didn't use the same pool as MP there anyway, so it didn't cause me as much trouble).
I agree with Shadowtext. Limit breaks should be its own arsenal - not directly tied to MP. FFVII had a great format - you get rewarded for being pounded silly AND you aren't penalized for healing your characters (like in FFVI).
Not to say it can't be done in a 'good way', but I'm not really a fan of what often ends up as a random variable resulting in a victory for the player.
But that's just preference, I guess.
But that's just preference, I guess.
Shinan
4314
I like desperation moves in that they are those kamikaze moves that saves your friends but takes down a city block with it. I think that these special moves should be very powerful but should always come with some kind of penalty. I don't really like them being random, instead it should be possible to (rather simply) plan when to use them.
An idea could be for them to be one-use items. The problem always being that I tend to save up one-shot things until I "need them" and I never use them.
Another problem with these special ubermoves is that they should be exclusively used in epic battles. No one wants to waste these on some regular enemies.
Alright uh. I just came up with something that would be a pretty neat desperation move system. Having a unique depseration move for every epic battle in the game. (no matter if the player is going to use it or not) It could even have a storyline effect like the cliche view of anime I have (I have seen maybe two or three animes) where a character does some dialogue perhaps some heavy closeups and sweating and bleeding before summoning up that final strength to kick major ass.
It could have storyline effect in that if you use your desperation move against certain bosses perhaps you go without some bonus, or perhaps one character goes with an injury for a while. (perhaps even removing him from the party until certain conditions are met)
I think this concept would be interesting if implemented. It would make the battles affect the storyline a bit and if you wanted to use your desperation attack you'd probably win the fight (because that's what those attacks do) but you'd pay a certain price for it. So for each epic battle you could make this choice. Not to mention that it could make a game easier for those who don't really like the challenge ("I don't want to grind fifteen levels just to beat this") while providing an alternate route for those who are hardcore.
An idea could be for them to be one-use items. The problem always being that I tend to save up one-shot things until I "need them" and I never use them.
Another problem with these special ubermoves is that they should be exclusively used in epic battles. No one wants to waste these on some regular enemies.
Alright uh. I just came up with something that would be a pretty neat desperation move system. Having a unique depseration move for every epic battle in the game. (no matter if the player is going to use it or not) It could even have a storyline effect like the cliche view of anime I have (I have seen maybe two or three animes) where a character does some dialogue perhaps some heavy closeups and sweating and bleeding before summoning up that final strength to kick major ass.
It could have storyline effect in that if you use your desperation move against certain bosses perhaps you go without some bonus, or perhaps one character goes with an injury for a while. (perhaps even removing him from the party until certain conditions are met)
I think this concept would be interesting if implemented. It would make the battles affect the storyline a bit and if you wanted to use your desperation attack you'd probably win the fight (because that's what those attacks do) but you'd pay a certain price for it. So for each epic battle you could make this choice. Not to mention that it could make a game easier for those who don't really like the challenge ("I don't want to grind fifteen levels just to beat this") while providing an alternate route for those who are hardcore.
I like to use attacks that cost Health for this because I feel like I'm not directly ripping off a final fantasy game. Although they do make the limit break sound.
I think FF7/FF10 had the best implementation of Limit Breaks. Not what they were but how you got them. Take a massive hit? Your limit gauge is going to go up a fair bit, and in FF7 you can use items to give you a status to have them go up faster (a bit of a trade off from sadness which reduces damage received but your limit gauge fills up slower). Once you got them you could hold on to them, so if you're at 1/9999 HP you can heal besides attacking hoping that you do your limit attack and hope it kills the enemy (FF6) or you didn't have to use them immediately (FF8,9). You can save the limit break for something that deserves it, like a boss instead of some stupid random encounter that you had at the wrong time. Only problem was that you coudn't attack when the limit gauge was filled with FF7.
The FF12 Quickenings were awful. I couldn't chain them past 7-9 hits and the damage they did was awful. I'd rather use regular attacks and save the MP for whenever I'd need it (oh hey the enemy became immune to physical attacks again!).
I'm with Karusman though. I'd rather beat a boss using strategy than some SUPER HYPER RARE ATTACK if possible.
The FF12 Quickenings were awful. I couldn't chain them past 7-9 hits and the damage they did was awful. I'd rather use regular attacks and save the MP for whenever I'd need it (oh hey the enemy became immune to physical attacks again!).
I'm with Karusman though. I'd rather beat a boss using strategy than some SUPER HYPER RARE ATTACK if possible.
Shadowtext
120
author=GreatRedSpirit link=topic=1891.msg30729#msg30729 date=1221084431You were doing them wrong. 15-to-20-hit quickenings weren't too tough to pull off most of the time and easily did a ton of damage.
The FF12 Quickenings were awful. I couldn't chain them past 7-9 hits and the damage they did was awful. I'd rather use regular attacks and save the MP for whenever I'd need it (oh hey the enemy became immune to physical attacks again!).
And properly implemented, hyper mega rare attacks are part of the strategy against a boss. Those "Enemy is immune to attacks" moments are part of what makes Quickenings so important--you need to dish out damage quick when you can against monsters that can throw down palings against you, and if you're hunting Marks chances are you're going to be fighting plenty of enemies whose defense is too high to do them much damage without Quickenings.
By the 8th chain I'm not quick enough to do another quickening. Much less if someone needs a mist recharge. I never really tried to figure out Quickenings; I don't remember there being much of a tutorial on them for FF12 and setting up the proper gambits was much easier (to the point where I could put the controller down and kill almost everything I fought). I didn't do too much post-game though, so maybe quickenings are important then.
I wouldn't argue that super hyper attacks arne't part of a boss strategy. God Hand does this beautifully: You can beat the game on Level Die without Roulette/GodHand (aka the Super Hyper Attacks) but you'd better be ready to go crazy in the process and die a couple hundred times. Its expected to use the special attacks at opportune times (and not just against bosses). I don't think I've played a RPG where that applied though.
I wouldn't argue that super hyper attacks arne't part of a boss strategy. God Hand does this beautifully: You can beat the game on Level Die without Roulette/GodHand (aka the Super Hyper Attacks) but you'd better be ready to go crazy in the process and die a couple hundred times. Its expected to use the special attacks at opportune times (and not just against bosses). I don't think I've played a RPG where that applied though.
author=kentona link=topic=1891.msg30661#msg30661 date=1221056784
I agree with Shadowtext. Limit breaks should be its own arsenal - not directly tied to MP. FFVII had a great format - you get rewarded for being pounded silly AND you aren't penalized for healing your characters (like in FFVI).
I liked FFX's way of doing it, were you select what conditions your gauge fills under. For example, you can set Tidus, Auron, and Lulu to Warrior (charge upon dealing damage), set Yuna to healer (obvious), set Wakka to Tactician (charge upon inflicting a negative status ailment) and so on. If your characters were mix-matched, you could set your modes accordingly. This tops FFVII's way, because you can play by your own specific strengths.
i did always like the way they did limit breaks in ff8 so your almost down and one decicive hit will win it for you so you could use your limit to win.
i would always use squall, selphie and quistis so limit breaks were easy for me to pull off
now for me to try that in rpg maker.
i would always use squall, selphie and quistis so limit breaks were easy for me to pull off
now for me to try that in rpg maker.
S. F. LaValle
1069
I'm undecided on the topic of limit breaks. In terms of FFVII, they could determine the outcome of a fight, or just be there to give an occasional damage push (depending on what level you chose to use). I did use some strategy on their use; such as filling limit guages before a boss fight, and using enemy attack patterns to determine when my guages would fill again, and choose some actions accordingly.
I hesitate because I would hate to see any other attacks or strategies you apply during the fight to be shallow by comparison. I don't believe including or not including limit breaks should be a yes or no decision, I feel that implementation (or omittance) should involve thorough consideration of battle system balancing. In my case, I am thinking about this type of balance: Normal Attacks < Skills/Spells < "Limit Breaks." Normal attacks would account for something like 15 - 35% of all damage done in a battle (I just pulled these numbers out of my head for an example). Skills/Spells will account for around 40 - 70%. Greater emphasis on damage with this group of abilities, because they will require strategy and some consumable resource (such as an item, MP, HP, or casting time) that normal attacks don't. "Limit Breaks" would account for probably 20 - 30%.
The benefit would lie in dealing large amounts of damage in far less time than normal skills/spells would require. I definitely wouldn't want to rely on their use or count on their availability.
I hesitate because I would hate to see any other attacks or strategies you apply during the fight to be shallow by comparison. I don't believe including or not including limit breaks should be a yes or no decision, I feel that implementation (or omittance) should involve thorough consideration of battle system balancing. In my case, I am thinking about this type of balance: Normal Attacks < Skills/Spells < "Limit Breaks." Normal attacks would account for something like 15 - 35% of all damage done in a battle (I just pulled these numbers out of my head for an example). Skills/Spells will account for around 40 - 70%. Greater emphasis on damage with this group of abilities, because they will require strategy and some consumable resource (such as an item, MP, HP, or casting time) that normal attacks don't. "Limit Breaks" would account for probably 20 - 30%.
The benefit would lie in dealing large amounts of damage in far less time than normal skills/spells would require. I definitely wouldn't want to rely on their use or count on their availability.
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