WHAT EXACTLY IS A DUNGEON?

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Or should I say: What counts as a dungeon?

I've been playing around with an idea for game a little while. The game would not feature a world map, since I'd like to make the world feel larger and more connected. Because of not having a world map, there will instead be more maps like these:




A simple field map, with a sole purpose for connecting various areas. Some of these field maps will have battles and some won't. There will also be different treasures to be found, as well as other stuff like NPCs and "secrets".

Would this count as a dungeon? If not, what would it be? A part of the overworld?

This is just a small thing that's been bugging me lately O.o
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
Have you played Earthbound? The whole game has no overworld map. Like the game you're making, it's connected by maps (I'm also making a game right now that uses the same format to make everything seem connected).

You could define a dungeon in many different ways, but I generally think of it as "an area where the player isn't safe and must overcome challenges to progress." Be that area a mountain, a swamp, a traditional cave or underground space, or even a meadow that connects two other environments together.

In this same sense, a "town" doesn't have to literally be a city filled with people. A safe area where you can purchase goods and/or upgrades counts in my mind, too.

So, to actually answer your question, is there danger in that area? Are there monsters? If so, I think you could call it a dungeon of sorts, even if it's not a traditional one. If there are no dangers, I guess it's just a map that connects other maps.
I've only played a little bit of it past the intro, but I noticed that, yeah.

The map would probably have monsters and some field maps might even have small puzzles, moving boulder for exmaple. I guess an abandoned(and dangerous) town could be a dungeon in that manner as well!

It also comes down to what one defines as "danger". It doesn't necessarily have to be monsters only IMO.

A dungeon is where the main challenge happens.
SunflowerGames
The most beautiful user on RMN!
13323

It's where you find dragons.
If the map's called dungeon, it probably is one.

But really, depends on your definition of it. Usually it's a complete building/cave/entity on its own as opposed to battles on world maps or between cities. In which case the travel paths are probably not dungeons. And yeah, danger + puzzles gotta be there. The danger can be monster or non-monster generated. Although monsters are far more likely and non-monster options are hard to fill full buildings with
nhubi
Liberté, égalité, fraternité
11099
I think Unity has got it pretty much right, it's a sense of danger and risk, with a reward of some kind for traversing it. To use a real world example, when I was growing up I literally had woods at the bottom of my garden, my home backed onto the local forest. I'd go walking through them on a regular basis without coming to harm, but the wood was home to a large variety of wildlife, some of which was territorial. I knew to avoid certain areas at certain times of the year especially around mating/birthing season because you really don't want to be to near animals in rut or ones protecting their newborns. I was never harmed but a few of my friends who weren't as observant or were just unlucky came away with damages a couple quite serious. I wouldn't consider those woods to be a dungeon, even though there was a level of danger there for the unlucky or unwary.
In contrast near where I live now there is a cave system which is well known for being the habitat of a particularly nasty and venomous breed of snake. If I went in there no matter how careful I was I'd be running a fairly high risk of being envenomed. It is however the shortest way to get to a really lovely scenic spot that is perfect for picnics, which is why some people use it as a short cut even though the longer way is safer. So it has danger, risk and reward. Dungeon material in my mind.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If a cave connects two areas on the world map, and it's filled with monsters and has a boss, obviously that's a basic dungeon.

If you get rid of the boss, that's fine, not every dungeon has a boss. It's still a dungeon.

If you change the cave to a forest, that's fine, not every dungeon is indoors. It's still a dungeon.

If you remove the world map from each side, and just have the entrance and exit each go directly to a town, that's fine, you don't need a world map to have dungeons. It's still a dungeon.

But!

If you remove 75% of the enemies, and make the player walk back and forth through this area half a dozen times instead of just once, it's probably not really a "dungeon" any more.

It's still CONTENT of course. This isn't WORSE in any way. But I would classify it differently, and the player will think of it differently. The biggest difference here is that you no longer have a beginning and an end, which significantly changes the way the player plays the level. The fact that the player will be forced to keep returning to it repeatedly after they have finished exploring it is also a meaningful difference - without the exploration factor, the player will be much more comfortable there. It only feels truly dangerous the first time, when you're not sure precisely what to do. (That said, it's obviously possible to have repeatable dungeons, as every MMORPG does. There's a sliding scale here and the cutoff is fuzzy.)

This sort of thing is good to do occasionally. Making different kinds of content adds better pacing to your game.
It's where plot happens.

Let me explain. I have a similar situation where there is no world map, players just move from map to map and generally don't backtrack. Most maps have monsters on it as well as puzzles, but they aren't dungeons because the story's events don't happen there. They exist to get players to the dungeons. Let's take an event very early in the game- a bandit chief is kidnapping children and holding them for ransom in a cave. The heroes go to stop him. The walk through the field to that point isn't considered the dungeon even though you might encounter bandits along the way, the cave itself is because that's where the story unfolds and you fight the bandit chief. Then again, we associate "cave" with dungeon anyway, so I have another example- a corrupt town.

Let's say the heroes arrive in a town that starts out fine but we learn the leader is actually corrupt and evil. At night the heroes need to sneak in and fight him, taking out guards on the way. The town is then turned into a "dungeon" because there's a significant amount of story unfolding there, even if during the day it was just a normal town.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Plots are optional, and plenty of games without any plot still have dumgeons. No plot happens in the dungeons in Zelda 1 and 2. And I mean, you've heard of "dungeon crawlers" right? Quit being silly. Dungeons are a gameplay construct, they have nothing to do with the number of cut scenes.
My way of looking at is is this:

Is it some form of obstacle or challenge (whether puzzle, or enemy, or both) that the player has to surmount, with some end goal (whether it's to just get to the other side, to kill the boss, or just to loot some chests)?

Then it qualifies as a dungeon in my book.

When it ceases to be a challenge to be overcome and becomes a commute, as LockeZ alluded to, then it stops being a dungeon.
author=LockeZ
Plots are optional, and plenty of games without any plot still have dumgeons. No plot happens in the dungeons in Zelda 1 and 2. And I mean, you've heard of "dungeon crawlers" right? Quit being silly. Dungeons are a gameplay construct, they have nothing to do with the number of cut scenes.

I got nothing for dungeon crawlers, but why did you need to do those dungeons in Zelda 1 and 2?

Edit: also, who said anything about cutscenes?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
In Zelda 1 and 2, those dungeons existed to get players to the triforce at the end, in the same way that a field on the way to a bandit cave exists to get players to the bandit cave at the end. That's exactly the same amount of "plot."

It's not the same type of plot though, even though it sounds very similar when simplified to that degree. I think what you're actually trying to get at is this: the player's goal is inside the dungeon, not beyond it. The player has an objective at the end of the dungeon. This is a legitimate idea. An area that you are passing through on the way to somewhere else can definitely feel less dungeon-like for this reason.

Rather than arguing any more about semantics I think I want to look at this idea from a different perspective.

What aspects of this kind of field map cause it to not feel like a dungeon, and how does each of those aspects change the way the player plays or feels? Going down the topic so far:

The player is safe.
Without battles, the player's experience is obviously extremely different. Battles in RPG are the primary form of gameplay, and they're also what make your choices matter during exploration. Usually, the longer you explore, the more battles you get in, whether that's because you wanted to track down all 40 treasure chests or because you got lost. Without these battles, a typical map lacks any reason to not fully explore every cranny.

The player doesn't have to overcome challenges to progress.
Without battles, there's nothing interactive on the map except for treasure chests which are all in plain sight and easily accessed. There's no barrier whatsoever to progress. Therefore it can easily seem like making the player walk through it is just a waste of time. If it's absolutely guaranteed that the player will make it through the area, and getting the treasures is also basically guaranteed, why make them spend time doing it manually? If your map were filled with complex puzzles, or had a time limit or something, it would probably work better - without that, the exploration is going to be extremely boring.

The area doesn't stand on its own.
This area replaces the world map, and a genre-savvy player is going to be acutely aware of this fact, while a novice player will get a subconscious feeling that this is clearly not where the action happens.

The area is a path, not a destination. As a result the player will think about it differently. It feels less climactic. Less important. The player expects it to be simpler and easier. It won't get the player's complete focus. Because their specified goal in the area is simply to "get out of the area," they will be much more likely to see the entire dungeon as simply an obstacle to progress in the game, and will be anxious to move on to what they consider the next real dungeon.

There isn't a boss.
You can have a dungeon without a boss, obviously, as you can have a dungeon without most of these things. But it certainly feels somewhat less like a dungeon. Having a climactic end gives the player a good sense of accomplishment when they complete it. You're obviously not going to have the same sense of accomplishment if the player didn't accomplish as much. But more than that, having a big finale feels good, even if having three more normal battles might've actually been harder. I think the boss fight itself is almost a ritual to some players, a celebration for completing the exploration part of the dungeon.

It's outdoors.
This seems so minor. It affects the player's mood though. The area feels less oppressive. The player doesn't feel boxed in, even though the area might be mostly linear. Sometimes this is what you want. Sometimes it's not. I would say this has more effect on your storytelling than anything else. If your characters are on the run, in hiding, tossed into a prison dimension, etc., that feeling of openness is something you probably want to avoid. If your character is travelling on a grand adventure across the world, on a journey with no immediate goal at the moment, that openness is something you probably want to cling to.
In the original Role-Playing Games, the Dungeon was the area that wasn't the Town. Games like Wizardry, Megami Tensei I, and Etrian Odyssey, which are all based on the same model, had a single town and a single, labyrinthine dungeon with many levels. The player had to traverse the dungeon--the gameplay area--and then find a way back to town when resources started getting low.
CashmereCat
Self-proclaimed Puzzle Snob
11638
I like unity's definition "an area where the player isn't safe and must overcome challenges to progress". I like nhubi's IRL experience with mating forests and snake dungeons (lol). And I like LockeZ's definition of what a dungeon is, by defining what it is not. He also pointed out his decisions very logically, which I like as well.
Rule approach:
A dungeon has one more or start positions and one or more goals and challenges the players in finding and reaching them.

Feeling approach:
If it doesn't feel exciting to explore, it's not a dungeon.
Those are some good aspects, Locke! I believe the above field map I posted would act as a path more than a dungeon. It's basically a path that leads to different towns and dungeons. There might be danger there however(monsters).

Nice story, nhubi! I believe a lot of us share this kind of nostalgia ;P

My games fields do not stand out as dungeons in the same manner as Hyrule Field in the Zelda series. Both fields have danger though.

I suppose the first dungeon in this game would be the mountain, which will have both monsters and puzzles and a boss you fight at the top. Climbing up to the mountain top will act as a test in the players training period.

nhubi
Liberté, égalité, fraternité
11099
author=CashmereCat
I like unity's definition "an area where the player isn't safe and must overcome challenges to progress". I like nhubi's IRL experience with mating forests and snake dungeons (lol). And I like LockeZ's definition of what a dungeon is, by defining what it is not. He also pointed out his decisions very logically, which I like as well.


That's it Cash in your RMN game I want to see either a mating forest or a snake dungeon, or both. :)
author=nhubi
That's it Cash in your RMN game I want to see either a mating forest or a snake dungeon, or both. :)


Why not go all in and make a forest of mating snakes? XD
Anyone played Laxius Power I? Or someelse Indineras games?
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