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ARE YOU AN “ITEM HOARDER?”
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What If There's A Final Boss Before A Final Boss!?
Then I'll Use One Of My "MegaElixers"
So is having too much stuff often too much???
In an RPG, it never hurts to carry around a ton of healing based items for such an occasion. But in the real world, having a ton of stuff lying around in your backpack isn't necessarily a healthy thing nor the smartest idea in the world. Do you really need to lug around 99 Potions in your inventory? By the time you can afford such luxury, you probably have a couple of capable healers that can remedy that problem without too much of a hassle...so why need it? Same thing with Antidotes, do you really think you're going to be poisoned in the exact same dungeon 99 times? What about lugging around old equipment that you don't need? Unless that said game has a synthesis shop where keeping your old junk can net you a much greater award - what's the point of still carrying a wooden sword when you're wielding the legendary Excalibur? You get the point.
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense - so why do some players do it? I remember when I was I kid that I would save and pretty much keep everything that I find, this included MegaElixers and what not. Even know I could probably sell them for a small profit and use the money for other things and clear up some unnecessary space, I still keep them. Even in a tough battle where everybody is at 1 HP and almost about to die - I STILL WOULDN'T USE A MEGAELIXER! I could have saved myself some trouble back then but I didn't. Of course, I'm much older and wiser now. And looking back at my old item hoarding days, I just have to point and laugh at myself.
Of course, some RPG's like the earlier Ultima games had a cap restriction of how much you could actually carry around, making the whole item hoarding thing a bit more genuine. I kinda preferred that setup. And it makes me wonder why a lot of other games continue to use the old method of having up to 99 items for each object.
So are you a item hoarder? If so, why? And if you're not, how come? And is there any other way we can stop all the item hoarding?
Dyhalto
7536
If I have a choice between using a potion now and waiting for my healer's next turn (and hoping the injured char lives til then), I pick the latter.
That's the reason I never seem to have enough Phoenix Downs, but tons of pots.
That's the reason I never seem to have enough Phoenix Downs, but tons of pots.
Yes yes yes yes yes
I used to be like this when I was a lot younger. The thing is, the way most RPGs are designed, you never know what's ahead of you or when a good time to use those items are, so you're always afraid it's too early and you'll waste them.
Nowadays, I've realized that 1) if you're dying now, you need them now 2) if there's ever a point in the game when I really need 99 Megalixers, it's a terrible game and 3) I'm lazy and using super items is an easy way to not redo a battle.
Games that handle this really well are things like Earthbound, where your inventory is so limited you can't waste space carrying around items that you won't use. Roguelikes are this way too - often your carrying capacity is limited, and the cost of losing is way greater, so being too cautious with your items is even worse than being too frivolous with them.
One game that always stuck out to me with items was Quest 64. It had an quirky system - NPCs in towns would give you free items so long as you didn't already have that item. What this meant was you could go into a dungeon knowing you'd have X items and you could use them all during that dungeon, since you could always get more when you returned. Using them at the right time was important, but only for that particular adventure. It's a neat system and worth analyzing, I think.
Part of item hoarding is probably human nature, but designing games that encourage you to use your items instead of hoarding is important, too!
I used to be like this when I was a lot younger. The thing is, the way most RPGs are designed, you never know what's ahead of you or when a good time to use those items are, so you're always afraid it's too early and you'll waste them.
Nowadays, I've realized that 1) if you're dying now, you need them now 2) if there's ever a point in the game when I really need 99 Megalixers, it's a terrible game and 3) I'm lazy and using super items is an easy way to not redo a battle.
Games that handle this really well are things like Earthbound, where your inventory is so limited you can't waste space carrying around items that you won't use. Roguelikes are this way too - often your carrying capacity is limited, and the cost of losing is way greater, so being too cautious with your items is even worse than being too frivolous with them.
One game that always stuck out to me with items was Quest 64. It had an quirky system - NPCs in towns would give you free items so long as you didn't already have that item. What this meant was you could go into a dungeon knowing you'd have X items and you could use them all during that dungeon, since you could always get more when you returned. Using them at the right time was important, but only for that particular adventure. It's a neat system and worth analyzing, I think.
Part of item hoarding is probably human nature, but designing games that encourage you to use your items instead of hoarding is important, too!
Guilty as charged! Unless I notice they are very common, are useless or good cash is paid for them. That said, I won't shy away from using rare items if I consider the situation is dire enough or sometimes I will take the risk and wait for the next healer's turn. Sometimes things that were once rare are actually easy to obtain later.
I do like games that set some cap on how much you can carry because of space limitations or weight. One of my favorite ones is the space limitations in the X-Com series or the combo space/weight limitations of some rogue-likes. It forces you to make some choices ...
I do like games that set some cap on how much you can carry because of space limitations or weight. One of my favorite ones is the space limitations in the X-Com series or the combo space/weight limitations of some rogue-likes. It forces you to make some choices ...
DR1988
0
So are you a item hoarder?
kind of, it depends on the game really. 50/50
If so, why?
a) Great game you want to have those "perfect game" states saved, including every item as often as possible. In that case it makes my heart bleed if you have to trade rare items one for another and the "perfect game" can look different
b) Pretty much along the same lines of a, but then again... another issue:
having too much money and knowing you don't need it anymore, or at least not as much as you have/ will get. Mainly post-game money reducing xD
c) First playthroughs where you actually "think" (not expect, but who knows) you could end up using some (mega)lixirs in boss battles. I hardly ever use uber-healing because most of the time it feels like wasting something good :D
d) You already pointed out that most of the time you have white mages/healers who take care cheaper, faster and reliable. ANY menu healing is done by vita+co and like dyhalto, I stick to 'em during battle as well. Cutting down an mp potion instead of 50 healings seems natural and yeah, if needs be you can stick that phoenix feather I-don't-know-where.
e) Sometimes you do not have the effective healer in you party and actually throw plenty of potions to stick to your offensive plan. I had some occassions in ff13 where bosses(think it was an esper fought with light+hope or so?) actually took me 20 potions so I could stick to simply attacking otherwise. Having them with me made me happy :p
f) I hardly ever buy potions, I find them/ battle rewards
There are dozens of reasons, but if I had to decide it's because white magic has more appeal, you get plenty of healing items, and hardly ever need them - but some occasions might prove you wrong. As far as old gear is concerned
a) see "perfect game"
b) piggy bank. There's this new sword for me and it costs 10 000 gil. Unfortunately I only got 3000 left after buying all the armor. I could go grind for 7k, ignore the update OR sell my wood sword + iron sword + demonslayer + ... to buy it. Might be the right moment if I don't deem leveling necessary
c) confusion about it being outdated. The game won't display the stat increase/decrease for everyone. 8 char game with 4 char party. The menu will let me know my active party gets -1/-2 from this helmet, but it's possibly an update for the reserve.
d) blacksmithing ff9-way
And if you're not, how come?
If I'm not I either feel confident about myself, know the whole game already, or want/need the money from selling items. Maybe some combination of those. Because unless it's a "perfect game", or I wanna be on the safe side, I don't give a rats about the stuff ^.^
And is there any other way we can stop all the item hoarding?
There are plenty of ways. First of all:
make your game freakin tough. You can remove/heavily reduce monster drops (because again, most potions of mine aren't bought), increase prices (for people who DO buy a lot - also rewards selling more), reduce effectiveness/availability of healing skills/spells...
you could do away with healing completely, stressing the mage even more.
you can cap itemnumbers yourself as mentioned, or go the "diablo" way - and have limited storage for items altogether(read diablo 1. Or "maybe 2". Not really 3). If each healing potion takes 1/20 space of the chest where actually good items should sit... they'll be tossed/sold, no? ^^ (
However, most alternatives do not seem like steps forward. I remember games where items didn't stack that maybe should (like phantasy star online/blueburst). people can get pretty mad when they have to store hundreds of photon drops (kind of a "currency" paid in items) in a 200 slot box and each pd takes a seperate space. Why wouldn't they stack!? :D
Although some games do handle this well (I like the weight approach better than number cap or storage-slots), I wouldn't give it too much thought. Hoarding isn't so bad :(
Quest 64 was all about hoarding after you got the free one from town. Chests would give you duplicates no problem then you hoard them for the boss because if you use them up there's no way to get two honey loaves again until you find another unspoiled chest. That, or you know what element to pick (spoilers its Earth) and then you win the game. Doubly so in the Japanese version because you attack twice in one action.
An idea I have for a future game is to minimize the opportunity cost of using items now vs later. You get a set number of each item from town for free with a cap. You can increase said cap through treasures in dungeons including next tier items you don't have any of yet. This way the user won't need to worry that they're using an elixir because they know another is waiting outside a dungeon.
An idea I have for a future game is to minimize the opportunity cost of using items now vs later. You get a set number of each item from town for free with a cap. You can increase said cap through treasures in dungeons including next tier items you don't have any of yet. This way the user won't need to worry that they're using an elixir because they know another is waiting outside a dungeon.
I used to hoard items. Then I realized that in about half the games I played, I never used limited-inventory items and ended up winning 90% of the time in every encounter.
Now-a-days if I get some loot I'll either end up selling it or using it at the earliest opportunity.
Now-a-days if I get some loot I'll either end up selling it or using it at the earliest opportunity.
author=GreatRedSpirit
Quest 64 was all about hoarding after you got the free one from town. Chests would give you duplicates no problem then you hoard them for the boss because if you use them up there's no way to get two honey loaves again until you find another unspoiled chest. That, or you know what element to pick (spoilers its Earth) and then you win the game. Doubly so in the Japanese version because you attack twice in one action.
This might be true... I think enemies had a chance to drop items too. It's been forever since I played Quest. Well, the hypothetical idea seems like an interesting one: every time you go to town, you get 10 items to bring with you. That's your lot and you don't get more unless you visit another town. Preparation and good timing of item use is key! In a more complex game, maybe you get to pick which items are worth it!
Actually... that's the item system from Paper Mario... still, it seems like it's worth playing with!
RyaReisender
200
1. I'm an item hoarder.
2. I think the concept of items is pretty useless in most RPGs.
3. A good item concept is when:
a) The item amount you can have is very limited and easy to reach (e.g. x9 in Secret of Mana).
b) It's possible to refill the item amount to the max easily (I rather not have items that you can only get once in lifetime and need for the final boss).
c) Items ARE actually needed to win and can't simply be replaced with healing and recovery spells.
2. I think the concept of items is pretty useless in most RPGs.
3. A good item concept is when:
a) The item amount you can have is very limited and easy to reach (e.g. x9 in Secret of Mana).
b) It's possible to refill the item amount to the max easily (I rather not have items that you can only get once in lifetime and need for the final boss).
c) Items ARE actually needed to win and can't simply be replaced with healing and recovery spells.
ellenor
285
I'm also a guilty item horder.
Don't know why, but I just do it. Security mesures I suppose^^
Even in boss battles, I'm thinking that maybe there will be a even harder one later and then it is when I really need that high elixir.
So usually I end up only using them for the last boss XD
Don't know why, but I just do it. Security mesures I suppose^^
Even in boss battles, I'm thinking that maybe there will be a even harder one later and then it is when I really need that high elixir.
So usually I end up only using them for the last boss XD
Roy
450
I like hoarding...even when items seem to be readily available.
Even if a heal potion only heals 20HP if I have a gazillion of them and if I am in a tough spot or theres a boss near by, I rather use my hoard to healup and save my MP for the boss fight.
Also some games make something simple as a heal potion pretty expensive, yet they are easy to find in drops, so its economical to save them.
Last in real life we rarely actually have enough of certain items we want or need. Its somehow psychologically satisfiying to be able to hoard and since nothing weighs anything (in most games at least), you can carry 99 heal potions without breaking a sweat.
Even if a heal potion only heals 20HP if I have a gazillion of them and if I am in a tough spot or theres a boss near by, I rather use my hoard to healup and save my MP for the boss fight.
Also some games make something simple as a heal potion pretty expensive, yet they are easy to find in drops, so its economical to save them.
Last in real life we rarely actually have enough of certain items we want or need. Its somehow psychologically satisfiying to be able to hoard and since nothing weighs anything (in most games at least), you can carry 99 heal potions without breaking a sweat.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
To quote one excellent cartoonist Katie Tiedrich:
http://www.awkwardzombie.com/comic130.png
"Basically I am just a big miser when it comes to items and power-ups in every single game!
I always finish RPGs with like ninety-nine of every item because what if I needed it later. And then if I do need it later I save it anyway because maybe even later I will need it even more.
When I started throwing out potions so I could pick up more potions I realized I had a problem."
http://www.awkwardzombie.com/comic130.png
"Basically I am just a big miser when it comes to items and power-ups in every single game!
I always finish RPGs with like ninety-nine of every item because what if I needed it later. And then if I do need it later I save it anyway because maybe even later I will need it even more.
When I started throwing out potions so I could pick up more potions I realized I had a problem."
Skie Fortress
2394
Rather than that, I usually have the opposite problem. I find that I never seem to have enough items because I freely use them throughout dungeons.
In Tales of Xillia for example, I would always find myself low on Gels and Life bottles by the time I got through a dungeon or to a boss. Though, you could only carry 15 of each item at a time and you were always finding more items in chests as you go along. So that does help encourage item use. I suppose it was a good balance in the end.
As another example, I've been playing Disgaea D2 recently and the problem in this one isn't having enough items. It's that healing items suck. Healing 100, 350, 500 HP when your units have 1900-4000+ HP is totally useless. So I tend to ignore them and let any unit that has healing magic do the job. And that's weird because I don't recall healing items being this useless in Disgaea 2!
In Tales of Xillia for example, I would always find myself low on Gels and Life bottles by the time I got through a dungeon or to a boss. Though, you could only carry 15 of each item at a time and you were always finding more items in chests as you go along. So that does help encourage item use. I suppose it was a good balance in the end.
As another example, I've been playing Disgaea D2 recently and the problem in this one isn't having enough items. It's that healing items suck. Healing 100, 350, 500 HP when your units have 1900-4000+ HP is totally useless. So I tend to ignore them and let any unit that has healing magic do the job. And that's weird because I don't recall healing items being this useless in Disgaea 2!
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, if the game doesn't let you hoard a ton of items, and especially if it gives you replacements as you go that you can only carry if you've used the ones you already had, then the urge to save them all for later just disappears. It's a good method of handling items. And solves a variety of other issues too, like making it possible to have both abilities and items that do the same thing without either one being useless, and making the choice of items be able to be more of a tactical thing instead of just a way of refilling after battles.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
I'm still trying to shake off the hoarding habit.
Working on and playing my own RPG (which is hard), helped me to realize that sometimes you just need to use items NOW.
It's made playing the Etrian Odyssey games a lot easier. I actually USE the healing items that I find, even the ones I can't buy yet, if the need calls for it.
Working on and playing my own RPG (which is hard), helped me to realize that sometimes you just need to use items NOW.
It's made playing the Etrian Odyssey games a lot easier. I actually USE the healing items that I find, even the ones I can't buy yet, if the need calls for it.
Like my grinding problem, I hoarded like it was my job. I only use stat boosting items when I know I can get more, otherwise, they never get used. I also always save the beginning equipment because it is technically RARE! You usually only get one set of it at the beginning and you never see it again!
... I have a problem, I know.
... I have a problem, I know.
jedahxii
246
author=Oblic
Like my grinding problem, I hoarded like it was my job. I only use stat boosting items when I know I can get more, otherwise, they never get used. I also always save the beginning equipment because it is technically RARE! You usually only get one set of it at the beginning and you never see it again!
... I have a problem, I know.
I know what you mean, fellow enthusiasts. Even in the games where I absolutely know for certain that you don't make the "rusty sword" into anything, I cling onto it as if it were the key to the universe. I haven't an idea why, but the feeling of accomplishment at the end of a game when you have the best weapon and still being able to scroll through your giant bag of obsolete ones just leaves you with that fuzzy feeling of accomplishment. That's at least what I think it is, it's a tangible way to keep track of just how far we've come.
chaos/louiscyphre sent me a link to this topic with a line like "how is this hard for people" so while i do think it's not difficult to either 1) take items out of your game entirely or 2) make them worthwhile:
ff1/dq1 required items in order to heal effectively due to limited MP/potential lack of white mage in FF1
ff2/dq2 don't exist
ff3 might be even more item-based than ff1, dq3 has the ability to swap your party throughout the entire game -- but only at the tavern, so you couldn't access healing unless you brought items or a priest
er, pilgrim.
well your hero has heals but your hero is probably busy killing
ff4 is the first game in either dominating series to have a character that is 1) always in the party (for the endgame at least) and 2) has healing magic
dq4 has multiple healers at different points but you can make your own party, and items are just pretty good in DQ games in general
eventually you have cristo/kyril and nara/meena full-tiem
kinda like ff4 eventually just handing you rosa and saying FINE HAVE HER
and then in ff5/dq5, you get full customization over your party, so items are naturally more important (if you want them to be) because "uh i need to heal but i have four ninja-rangers"
ff6 then, finally
is where item use breaks down
and everybody just throws items into their game
even though everybody has cur2 anyway
i mean you have terra for most of the first part, who starts with cure, and when you don't have terra you have celes
who has cure
and when you don't have either
you have banon
soooooooooooooooooooooooooo
and mp is barely existent in that game, cast all day mofos
so basically what i'm saying is
-items were really useful
-suddenly items were only there for show
-items are still only there for show in a lot of cases
AS SUCH
i guess i don't blame people for being bad at items
edit: my overall meaning here is "you suck but it's not your fault"
solution: either take items out of your game, or make them able to do things other actions aren't. y'all are going WOW TALES SO INNOVATIVE but it's not just the item cap. you also have to realize that healing spells usually have a cast time, while items are usually instant. so while natalia is prepping that area heal, you can have guy throw an orange gel at anise who's in the red to tide her over until natalia's spells go off. STATERGEE!!! (also remember that tales games are much more frantic than most games, and enemies are constantly attacking you, so healing is actually an on-going process instead of just attack-attack-heal-attack-attack-heal like you find in plenty of turn-based games; it's part of the action, not just a "don't lose" button. as such both items and heal spells are important and, like i outlined above, have individual niches)
ff1/dq1 required items in order to heal effectively due to limited MP/potential lack of white mage in FF1
ff2/dq2 don't exist
ff3 might be even more item-based than ff1, dq3 has the ability to swap your party throughout the entire game -- but only at the tavern, so you couldn't access healing unless you brought items or a priest
er, pilgrim.
well your hero has heals but your hero is probably busy killing
ff4 is the first game in either dominating series to have a character that is 1) always in the party (for the endgame at least) and 2) has healing magic
dq4 has multiple healers at different points but you can make your own party, and items are just pretty good in DQ games in general
eventually you have cristo/kyril and nara/meena full-tiem
kinda like ff4 eventually just handing you rosa and saying FINE HAVE HER
and then in ff5/dq5, you get full customization over your party, so items are naturally more important (if you want them to be) because "uh i need to heal but i have four ninja-rangers"
ff6 then, finally
is where item use breaks down
and everybody just throws items into their game
even though everybody has cur2 anyway
i mean you have terra for most of the first part, who starts with cure, and when you don't have terra you have celes
who has cure
and when you don't have either
you have banon
soooooooooooooooooooooooooo
and mp is barely existent in that game, cast all day mofos
so basically what i'm saying is
-items were really useful
-suddenly items were only there for show
-items are still only there for show in a lot of cases
AS SUCH
i guess i don't blame people for being bad at items
edit: my overall meaning here is "you suck but it's not your fault"
solution: either take items out of your game, or make them able to do things other actions aren't. y'all are going WOW TALES SO INNOVATIVE but it's not just the item cap. you also have to realize that healing spells usually have a cast time, while items are usually instant. so while natalia is prepping that area heal, you can have guy throw an orange gel at anise who's in the red to tide her over until natalia's spells go off. STATERGEE!!! (also remember that tales games are much more frantic than most games, and enemies are constantly attacking you, so healing is actually an on-going process instead of just attack-attack-heal-attack-attack-heal like you find in plenty of turn-based games; it's part of the action, not just a "don't lose" button. as such both items and heal spells are important and, like i outlined above, have individual niches)
grindalf
3556
I've not read ALL the comments so sorry if I go over the same points again.
Yes I hoard Items, and items you can buy in shops I save up my cash and buy 99 of each
I think a good workaround for hording is like people have already said to limit how much each character can carry(weight is the best option)
Also a system I like is to limit how much shopkeepers sell(I believe Baldurs gate 2 worked this way) so you cannot buy unlimited amounts of potions.
I guess the main idea with this is balance, limit the items found, limit the items that can be bought, limit the items carried.
And test the crap out of the system so you know if its to much/to little
EDIT:Craze has an awesome answer
Yes I hoard Items, and items you can buy in shops I save up my cash and buy 99 of each
I think a good workaround for hording is like people have already said to limit how much each character can carry(weight is the best option)
Also a system I like is to limit how much shopkeepers sell(I believe Baldurs gate 2 worked this way) so you cannot buy unlimited amounts of potions.
I guess the main idea with this is balance, limit the items found, limit the items that can be bought, limit the items carried.
And test the crap out of the system so you know if its to much/to little
EDIT:Craze has an awesome answer
flarify
159
I am most definitely guilty of item hoarding.
It's half the reason I have such a hard time with roguelikes and other games that limit your inventory. I have a very bad habit of "well this might be useful later!" and carry around all the ingredients for poisons and potions as well as the respective poisons and potions even though I don't have Herbalism as a skill. I end up throwing away weapons before even considering these craftables-I-don't-ever-use, and I'm not sure why.
And as much as that is my fault for hoarding, I also really dislike having to inventory manage. It breaks immersion for me in the middle of a dungeon to have to go into the inventory screen and choose a half-dozen things to throw away because I want to pick up this really awesome armor that just dropped. What hero in their right mind would stop and start pulling things out of their bag to lighten the load a bit in the middle of a dungeon?
So, when confronted with a limited inventory, I really like having the ability to have a stash or something similar. I'm more than willing to go out in the field with a near-empty inventory, but it's the concept of "what if X happens" that keeps me wary of just selling or destroying everything. I've lost my healer in a storyline event enough times that I really don't want to risk being without that last resort.
It's half the reason I have such a hard time with roguelikes and other games that limit your inventory. I have a very bad habit of "well this might be useful later!" and carry around all the ingredients for poisons and potions as well as the respective poisons and potions even though I don't have Herbalism as a skill. I end up throwing away weapons before even considering these craftables-I-don't-ever-use, and I'm not sure why.
And as much as that is my fault for hoarding, I also really dislike having to inventory manage. It breaks immersion for me in the middle of a dungeon to have to go into the inventory screen and choose a half-dozen things to throw away because I want to pick up this really awesome armor that just dropped. What hero in their right mind would stop and start pulling things out of their bag to lighten the load a bit in the middle of a dungeon?
So, when confronted with a limited inventory, I really like having the ability to have a stash or something similar. I'm more than willing to go out in the field with a near-empty inventory, but it's the concept of "what if X happens" that keeps me wary of just selling or destroying everything. I've lost my healer in a storyline event enough times that I really don't want to risk being without that last resort.
