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The endless stream of "I need a team for free, I've never completed a game, I have no proof that I'm dedicated" threads really gets old, guys.
unity- 08/23/2016 01:31 PM
Posts 
CloseWhen you make a thread like this, other people have every right to get you to actually provide some credentials. I've been here for a few years and people keep posting these recruitment threads, and they always fail. Has anyone ever even seen one of these actually produce a game?
It would be one thing if it was like, "Hey, I've made games. Here, you can look at them. Okay, I need a team, let's talk" sort of deals, but every time, the answer to the question "Have you ever completed a game" is always "no" or "no, but, I have started a few" or "no, but, I have the creative energy to bring things to completion" without any proof.
The most insulting thing I've seen was in the latest one where a friend of the developer decided to join in and yell at people and dare suggest to us that no one makes games alone. On a site where tons of us have done just that. Absolutely ludicrous.
Perhaps even trying to talk to these people is pointless. Perhaps it's better to just ignore their threads and let them go without replies. All I've ever wanted was to encourage people to take a step on their own and prove they have the determination to make a game by themselves, but people don't want to hear that.
It would be one thing if it was like, "Hey, I've made games. Here, you can look at them. Okay, I need a team, let's talk" sort of deals, but every time, the answer to the question "Have you ever completed a game" is always "no" or "no, but, I have started a few" or "no, but, I have the creative energy to bring things to completion" without any proof.
The most insulting thing I've seen was in the latest one where a friend of the developer decided to join in and yell at people and dare suggest to us that no one makes games alone. On a site where tons of us have done just that. Absolutely ludicrous.
Perhaps even trying to talk to these people is pointless. Perhaps it's better to just ignore their threads and let them go without replies. All I've ever wanted was to encourage people to take a step on their own and prove they have the determination to make a game by themselves, but people don't want to hear that.
I see these threads on all sorts of forums, and I generally chalk them up to some of these would-be devs being very young, maybe 14 or 15, and just getting to the "I have an idea" phase without really knowing what exactly goes into making a game.
As much as I would like to educate everyone I see on these sorts of things, I know that helping every single person out there who needs to be informed of gamedev's inner workings isn't really something I can achieve in this life time, so I tend to look the other way now :/
As much as I would like to educate everyone I see on these sorts of things, I know that helping every single person out there who needs to be informed of gamedev's inner workings isn't really something I can achieve in this life time, so I tend to look the other way now :/
Yeah, I've seen loads, it always makes me a little sad, I suggest a pinned thread about this sorta stuff, like a "I want a team" request format and you need at least something to show?
author=Liberty
"Have you completed any games before YOU GOSH DARNED SILLYBUM OEDIPUS-COMPLEXER!?"
To be fair, there have been a few instances where the creators of those kinds of threads actually did listen to reason, but unfortunately are quite rare, yes.
An additional problematic side-effect of this team-seeking trend is that I personally feel discouraged from trying to form a team by them. One day, I too would like to seek the assistance of other people on this site that I know and respect, and who have skills I lack but are necessary to make my dream game. But the influx of recruitment threads has made people (including me) so weary of them that I'm afraid nobody would take me seriously if I ever tried to look for a team on RMN to help me work on a game of mine. Sigh...
author=SgtMettool
I see these threads on all sorts of forums, and I generally chalk them up to some of these would-be devs being very young, maybe 14 or 15, and just getting to the "I have an idea" phase without really knowing what exactly goes into making a game.
As much as I would like to educate everyone I see on these sorts of things, I know that helping every single person out there who needs to be informed of gamedev's inner workings isn't really something I can achieve in this life time, so I tend to look the other way now :/
That's a good way to look at it, I think. I used to be naive enough to think that pointing them in the right direction where they could get started by themselves was a good idea, but they almost never want to give that a shot.
You're probably right. It's probably just kids. I should probably just chill. Though part of me wants to yell at them about how I was messing around with RPG Maker 95 and 2000 at their age and making crap on my own XD;
author=NeverSilentauthor=LibertyTo be fair, there have been a few instances where the creators of those kinds of threads actually did listen to reason, but unfortunately are quite rare, yes.
"Have you completed any games before YOU GOSH DARNED SILLYBUM OEDIPUS-COMPLEXER!?"
An additional problematic side-effect of this team-seeking trend is that I personally feel discouraged from trying to form a team by them. One day, I too would like to seek the assistance of other people on this site that I know and respect, and who have skills I lack but are necessary to make my dream game. But the influx of recruitment threads has made people (including me) so weary of them that I'm afraid nobody would take me seriously if I ever tried to look for a team on RMN to help me work on a game of mine. Sigh...
When I make teams, it's always through PMs or other methods of direct contact. However, I really think that one of us who has proven our follow-through could indeed make a thread like this and have it taken seriously. But that's a good point. All these people who make accounts just to ask for teams kind of devalue the idea of team recruitment itself.
author=Sated
But not as old as the endless stream of unfinished games on this site!
killmenow
Is it good or bad that I think most of these recruitment threads don't usually even get far enough to make a gamepage that they'll eventually abandon?
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
It's a perspective thing. To us, it's happened so many times that we start to get annoyed at seeing the same patterns over and over again. To them, however, it's the very first time. We can't expect everyone else to just magically have the experience and observations we have.
No, I'm not defending these people. I'm just saying I can at least understand their position.
That being said, we do have teamwork articles that should be very helpful, assuming these people take the time to read them. Considering the last instance where me sharing said article was blatantly ignored (at least visibly. They could have read it and just refused to acknowledged it), I'm thinking we should just chalk up these types of threads as, "some lessons just need to be learned firsthand." Experience and flops will speak volumes more than any cautionary tales we give them.
No, I'm not defending these people. I'm just saying I can at least understand their position.
That being said, we do have teamwork articles that should be very helpful, assuming these people take the time to read them. Considering the last instance where me sharing said article was blatantly ignored (at least visibly. They could have read it and just refused to acknowledged it), I'm thinking we should just chalk up these types of threads as, "some lessons just need to be learned firsthand." Experience and flops will speak volumes more than any cautionary tales we give them.
People should link to this post more often:
https://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/15827/?post=557326#post557326
The section about making a team I copy pasted to the spoiler below.
"If you are requesting for someone else to help you make a project:
If you have just joined this site and do not know anyone, chances are that people are not going to respond to requests to make a project with you. Most people here are very busy with their own projects are not going to accommodate a random person they do not know. Your best chance is to network; get to know people, make friends, express interest in other peoples' projects, and provide feedback. Once people know who you are, they are much more likely to respond amiably to your requests, especially if you have done something to help them in the past.
These are the rules for this:
When asking for aid you MUST include at least as much information as someone who is creating a game page.
For those seeking help there must be:
- At least 500 words describing the game - what you're aiming for, game genre, story summary, systems planned, anything that will draw people in out of interest and what plans you have for the game itself. If you can't meet the word limit you don't have enough information to go looking for people to make the game with.
- 3+ screenshots of what you have so far or what you're capable of.
- Precise details about what you're looking for in people - what type of skills (mappers, writers, animators, musicians, etc); the skill level (beginner, advanced, professional); what you're looking to get out of them (a few sprites, 20 maps, an estimate of songs); what, if anything, you're willing to pay/recompense them with (nothing, monetary reward, t-shirts, something from the RMN store); the estimated amount/length of work (a few weeks, a couple of months, a year, until end of development).
- Past pieces of work, if applicable. This can be in the vein of written works, art, story boarding, games (even just flash ones) or anything that can show you have some sort of skill and the level of such.
In the case that a thread doesn't abide by these rules I will ask that it be updated. If after 48 hours it hasn't been, then I will move said topic to the Archives. I will not lock, so that the creator has the chance to edit and once edited, they may contact Liberty via PM and, if it meets the new rules, it will be moved back to the correct area.
In the case of rejection, topic spam will be met with warnings and/or bans, as per the site rules.
Failure to adhere to the guidelines above will likely result in your topic being locked, and/or ignored. Please be respectful of other peoples' time and effort."
I think we need to make people more aware about this piece of text when it comes to making teams!
https://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/15827/?post=557326#post557326
The section about making a team I copy pasted to the spoiler below.
"If you are requesting for someone else to help you make a project:
If you have just joined this site and do not know anyone, chances are that people are not going to respond to requests to make a project with you. Most people here are very busy with their own projects are not going to accommodate a random person they do not know. Your best chance is to network; get to know people, make friends, express interest in other peoples' projects, and provide feedback. Once people know who you are, they are much more likely to respond amiably to your requests, especially if you have done something to help them in the past.
These are the rules for this:
When asking for aid you MUST include at least as much information as someone who is creating a game page.
For those seeking help there must be:
- At least 500 words describing the game - what you're aiming for, game genre, story summary, systems planned, anything that will draw people in out of interest and what plans you have for the game itself. If you can't meet the word limit you don't have enough information to go looking for people to make the game with.
- 3+ screenshots of what you have so far or what you're capable of.
- Precise details about what you're looking for in people - what type of skills (mappers, writers, animators, musicians, etc); the skill level (beginner, advanced, professional); what you're looking to get out of them (a few sprites, 20 maps, an estimate of songs); what, if anything, you're willing to pay/recompense them with (nothing, monetary reward, t-shirts, something from the RMN store); the estimated amount/length of work (a few weeks, a couple of months, a year, until end of development).
- Past pieces of work, if applicable. This can be in the vein of written works, art, story boarding, games (even just flash ones) or anything that can show you have some sort of skill and the level of such.
In the case that a thread doesn't abide by these rules I will ask that it be updated. If after 48 hours it hasn't been, then I will move said topic to the Archives. I will not lock, so that the creator has the chance to edit and once edited, they may contact Liberty via PM and, if it meets the new rules, it will be moved back to the correct area.
In the case of rejection, topic spam will be met with warnings and/or bans, as per the site rules.
Failure to adhere to the guidelines above will likely result in your topic being locked, and/or ignored. Please be respectful of other peoples' time and effort."
I think we need to make people more aware about this piece of text when it comes to making teams!
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
unity and I also wrote a couple of articles about this exact issue:
https://rpgmaker.net/articles/1160/
https://rpgmaker.net/articles/1058/
I always feel conceited plugging my own articles, haha...
https://rpgmaker.net/articles/1160/
https://rpgmaker.net/articles/1058/
I always feel conceited plugging my own articles, haha...
I link to that goddamn post pretty goddamn often. It's even in a pinned rules topic. But people won't read the rules and will whine when they're pointed out (or get crazy defensive about it, calling you rude and mean for pointing out THE GODDAMN RULES).
author=Liberty
I link to that goddamn post pretty goddamn often. It's even in a pinned rules topic. But people won't read the rules and will whine when they're pointed out (or get crazy defensive about it, calling you rude and mean for pointing out THE GODDAMN RULES).
As a librarian, I can tell you that getting anyone to read anything these days is an uphill battle.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
author=NeverSilentauthor=Red_NovaRMN's least humblest.
I always feel conceited plugging my own articles, haha...
I'M MORE HUMBLE THAN ANYONE ELSE ON THIS SITE SHUT UP!1
author=Red_Novaauthor=NeverSilentI'M MORE HUMBLE THAN ANYONE ELSE ON THIS SITE SHUT UP!1author=Red_NovaRMN's least humblest.
I always feel conceited plugging my own articles, haha...
#RMNTAGLINE
But yeah, those articles are useful :D
I feel like McBacon Jams are the biggest exception to the general rule about teams never getting together. Though, there's at least two factors in McBacon Jam's favor that, in my opinion, helps things along.
First and foremost, the events are not necessarily looking for epic-length games. I feel it cannot be stressed enough how important shorter-length games are to actually getting game developers together. Second, there is a definitive time-period involved. Anybody with any kind of familiarity to McBacon Jams knows that they are going to be working with their teammates for at least the period of time that the jam takes place in. I grant the possibility that somebody needs to drop out of a team for various reasons.
*Edit: There is also the factor that part of McBacon Jam's concept is "work with the person/people that you always wanted to work with". So, I feel a person's capabilities would largely be known, and would not necessarily have to be advertised?
*Edit2: Though, to be fair, there were probably a number of people that advertised themselves in the most recent recruitment thread. Either they were too afraid to ask directly (hi) or literally had no clue (or cared?) who they would work with?
First and foremost, the events are not necessarily looking for epic-length games. I feel it cannot be stressed enough how important shorter-length games are to actually getting game developers together. Second, there is a definitive time-period involved. Anybody with any kind of familiarity to McBacon Jams knows that they are going to be working with their teammates for at least the period of time that the jam takes place in. I grant the possibility that somebody needs to drop out of a team for various reasons.
*Edit: There is also the factor that part of McBacon Jam's concept is "work with the person/people that you always wanted to work with". So, I feel a person's capabilities would largely be known, and would not necessarily have to be advertised?
*Edit2: Though, to be fair, there were probably a number of people that advertised themselves in the most recent recruitment thread. Either they were too afraid to ask directly (hi) or literally had no clue (or cared?) who they would work with?
In a game jam like that, however, there is usually no single one person that gets to decide what kind of game the team makes. And those people who tend to start the recruitments threads are usually looking for others to help them turn their own predetermined game idea into a real game. The meaning of teamwork in both situations is simply fundamentally different.
Personally, I enjoyed the one time I participated in a McBacon Jam, and everone in our team did equally great work. But it also left me completely burnt out. On the surface, a long-term team commitment seems much more attractive, since you could easily get the impression that you can take your time all you want. Of course, that's an illusion. But especially to less experienced, overconfident or overenthusiastic developers, it obviously seems so much more convenient to assume the easier route is having other people at your disposal to work for instead of with you.
Personally, I enjoyed the one time I participated in a McBacon Jam, and everone in our team did equally great work. But it also left me completely burnt out. On the surface, a long-term team commitment seems much more attractive, since you could easily get the impression that you can take your time all you want. Of course, that's an illusion. But especially to less experienced, overconfident or overenthusiastic developers, it obviously seems so much more convenient to assume the easier route is having other people at your disposal to work for instead of with you.
author=NeverSilent
In a game jam like that, however, there is usually no single one person that gets to decide what kind of game the team makes. And those people who tend to start the recruitments threads are usually looking for others to help them turn their own predetermined game idea into a real game. The meaning of teamwork in both situations is simply fundamentally different.
This is an absolutely fair point!
